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1974 Porsche 911 Coupe, RSR Project
1976 Porsche 911 Targa, Black
1986 Porsche 911 Carrera, Black
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Old 02-28-2014, 10:59 AM
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6 Genuine Bosch Original Equipment Fuel Injectors 1982 88 BMW 535i M6 633i New | eBay

So these are a direct drop in for a 3.2 Carrera ROW?

No tweaking or fiddling necessary?

Thank you in advance.
Ed
Old 09-15-2014, 07:25 PM
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Correct, those are drop in replacements. But you should recheck mixture after you put these in. Even with new stock injectors mixture needs to be verified.


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Originally Posted by strikee View Post
6 Genuine Bosch Original Equipment Fuel Injectors 1982 88 BMW 535i M6 633i New | eBay

So these are a direct drop in for a 3.2 Carrera ROW?

No tweaking or fiddling necessary?

Thank you in advance.
Ed
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1984 911 Carrera Cab M491 (Factory Wide Body)
1975 911S Targa (SOLD)
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Old 09-16-2014, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strikee View Post
6 Genuine Bosch Original Equipment Fuel Injectors 1982 88 BMW 535i M6 633i New | eBay

So these are a direct drop in for a 3.2 Carrera ROW?

No tweaking or fiddling necessary?

Thank you in advance.
Ed
Or these:
Jaguar XJ6 1990 1992 Fuel Injector Bosch Free Shipping | eBay
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Old 09-16-2014, 10:28 AM
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What is the advantage? Marren can clean the stock units for $125.
Old 09-16-2014, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by DG624 View Post
What is the advantage? Marren can clean the stock units for $125.
In (rip off) Australia, I have just been quoted $40 each.

Ed.
Old 09-16-2014, 05:45 PM
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Rebuilt serviced injectors still have some unknowns:
- Coils are not serviced and they do become damaged from vibration.
- The actual cases can also leak over time and these are not serviced.

Normally they change the filter, add new o-rings, replace the plastic tips and flow them to check spray patterns and delivery of fuel.

Rebuilt injectors are not the same as having new ones. If you can purchase new Bosch injectors for slightly more I'd opt for new ones.

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Originally Posted by DG624 View Post
What is the advantage? Marren can clean the stock units for $125.
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1984 911 Carrera Cab M491 (Factory Wide Body)
1975 911S Targa (SOLD)
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Old 09-17-2014, 06:00 AM
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I know it's an old thread but this injector topic keeps coming up on my side.
These factory 158 injectors for the 3.2L are very expensive and we have found others that work as drop in replacements but those are also very hard to find 'new' now. Most are re-manufactured.

This brings me to a possible much better solution I could offer. Currently in my MAF system I use modern day 4 or 6 hole skinny injectors with the stock DME, these are hi-imp injectors while the stock ones are lo-imp. The good news is the DME injection driver circuit could care less and has no issue driving hi-imp injectors. But the new hi-imp injectors must be modeled correctly in the chip software and I can do this easily, I already do this in my custom MAF chip.

Here's an example of the injectors I use in my MAF, these are 4 hole modern bosch injectors, they atomize fuel much better and they are readily available brand new from bosch! This is what they look like:


I can also source these EV6 6 hole injectors as well, I currently am running these in my personal car with my MAF but these are not bosch:


Here's a great video showing single hole vs 4 hole injectors in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHf-6ohkgbA
The 4 on the left side are 4 hole, 4 on the right side old school single hole.

My idea is to simply offer a performance chip that comes with 6 new EV4 or EV6 injectors and offer this as a kit. You will get brand new injectors with a performance chip match to these injectors at a price point less than 6 new stock injectors. It would take a bit of effort to create this package setup but I can easily do it.

So the question is: would it be worth doing? would anyone purchase it?
Price point in the $600-$750 range.

Keep in mind it's not just injectors you also get my performance tune for these motors. I can also do the bare bones 1989 factory chip tuned to these injectors but no other performance tuning but I figure I'd rather offer the injector kit with a perf chip not just a factory tune.

Thoughts?
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1984 911 Carrera Cab M491 (Factory Wide Body)
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Last edited by scarceller; 09-15-2015 at 11:49 AM..
Old 09-15-2015, 11:19 AM
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Sal - would you be remapping the existing chip or supplying a new chip? Either way, it seems reasonable. Other chips are in the $300-400 range, so the cost/injector is pretty competitive when you think of it as two separate items - chip and injector.

I personally would not be interested in maximum horsepower, rather improved driveability across the rpm range. After watching the video, it's hard to image that you wouldn't experience improvements.
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Old 09-21-2015, 11:13 AM
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I will be using an entirely brand new chip that has an all new Air Fuel model. The chip is based on my MAF chip but programmed to the Factory Air meter (AFM). The chip is also tuned for best reasonable torque and HP. More important are the Part Throttle enhancements for improved throttle response.

I'm already working on this chip at this time, matched to Ford Racing LU24A (6 hole) injectors, these are easily sourced and are the purple injectors in the pic above. I'm currently running these in my personal car with MAF. Now I'm putting back the stock AFM and re-mapping the MAF chip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregwils View Post
Sal - would you be remapping the existing chip or supplying a new chip? Either way, it seems reasonable. Other chips are in the $300-400 range, so the cost/injector is pretty competitive when you think of it as two separate items - chip and injector.

I personally would not be interested in maximum horsepower, rather improved driveability across the rpm range. After watching the video, it's hard to image that you wouldn't experience improvements.
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1984 911 Carrera Cab M491 (Factory Wide Body)
1975 911S Targa (SOLD)
1964 356SC (SOLD)
1987 Ford Mustang LX 5.0 Convertible

Last edited by scarceller; 09-21-2015 at 11:27 AM..
Old 09-21-2015, 11:24 AM
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possible dumb question... do you know of any "drop-in" 4 or 6 hole injectors that are LOW impediance so the chip does not need reprograming...? thx, bob
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Old 09-30-2015, 06:18 AM
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I do not know of any 4 or 6 hole injectors that are lo-imp. All modern 4 and 6 hole injectors are now disk style injectors and they no longer require lo-imp. Basically lo-imp was used in the early single spray injectors to achieve very fast on times, these lo-imp injectors typically have on times in 0.5ms range.

But the more modern injectors are now hi-imp and can have on times in the 0.6 to 0.8 ms range without needing to be lo-imp. The technology between the older single hole and the newer 4 and 6 hole is very different. The newer injectors can really help clean up idle as well as slightly better MPG simply because they atomize fuel better at low flow rates. The older injectors did not atomize fuel very well and they sprayed at the back side of the closed intake valve to utilize the hot valve surface to help atomize the fuel but at low flow rates this practice is not perfect. However, at hi flow rates (Heavy load like Wide Open Throttle) either injector functions well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 911 tweaks View Post
possible dumb question... do you know of any "drop-in" 4 or 6 hole injectors that are LOW impediance so the chip does not need reprograming...? thx, bob
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1984 911 Carrera Cab M491 (Factory Wide Body)
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Old 09-30-2015, 06:56 AM
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ok thx... so what modern 4 or 6 hole hi impedance injectors are "drop-in" and do not require a regrogramming of the ecu chip...??
have you found any that you have proven work well and DO NOT require an ecu reprogramming...?? thx
...when i say "drop in", this means the existing wire harness in the car will connect to what ever new injector you say works & it ALSO fits in the hole in the base of the stk intake runner...
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Old 09-30-2015, 07:22 AM
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I do not know of any 4 or 6 hole injectors that are lo-imp.
Could you put a resistor in series with them (would it need one?) so the peak and hold circuit never sees a peak?
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Old 09-30-2015, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by rick-l View Post
Could you put a resistor in series with them (would it need one?) so the peak and hold circuit never sees a peak?
Actually when you run the hi-imp injectors the drive circuit does not do peak and hold. I've actually scoped the injector signal with the hi-imp injectors and the signal simply goes to ground and allows full current flow! Basically the circuitry does not see enough current to switch to duty cycle pulse it just applies a 100% duty cycle. I have not looked into why the circuit does this but that's what the scope shows.

You do not need to do anything with resistors at all.

The bottom line is that I purchase only 4 or 6 hole injectors that come with full spec sheets. I then program the my new DME code to match those injector times. The hi-imp injectors MUST be modeled correctly for battery offset (system voltage), then also for injector on times as well as injector non linear slope. This last non linear slope behavior can not be done in the stock chip, it was never considered in the initial design of the DME. To be clear, I re-wrote a large portion of the injector modeling portion of the code. I used modern day well know modeling techniques used in most modern day EFI system.

The hi imp injectors behave different than the older stock ones:
- Take slightly longer to fully turn on, known as dead times
- Have different compensation rates for different system voltage, known inj offset
- And finally all injectors are not exactly linear, meaning that a 10ms pulse may not inject 2X the fuel of a 5ms pulse. This is especially true at low flow rates where injectors tend to inject more fuel per unit of time. This is known as injector slope in modern system. This was not addressed at all in the original DME design.

Bottom line, you can not and should not assume that a drop in injector works the same as stock. You could pick a drop in unit that may work spot on at WOT but then be all over the place at idle or low flow rates.

Here's a great video by Greg Banish, he illustrates these points well in the video among other points as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZmV10pFsCM
This video illustrates perfectly the dangerous assumptions about injectors. Pay attention where he mentions properly modeling the injector in the given EFI, that's exactly what I can do now with my new code.

Here's another great article written by Greg, lengthy and very detailed:
http://injectordynamics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/WhosGettingDrilled.pdf

One last point: Greg was a mentor to helping me design the new software, so was Geoffrey Ring one of the very best MoTec tuners in the country. Those 2 guys I respect highly!
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1964 356SC (SOLD)
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Last edited by scarceller; 09-30-2015 at 08:58 AM..
Old 09-30-2015, 08:46 AM
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Update on the 360 injectors, I had only personally tested 364 injectors but this past week I had the chance to help out on a customer's setup that used the 360 injectors and they do work but appear to flow slightly less than the stock 158s. We had to close the AFM bypass screw completely to achieve target mixture. I personally do not like the screw to be fully closed so we decided to set the Fuel Quality Switch in the DME to pos #1 instead of the default pos #0. Pos #1 simply richens the mixture 3% across the board, this did the trick and the car was confirmed to have correct AFR under all driving conditions (Idle, PT and WOT).

This customer had 6 brand new (not rebuilds) 0280150360 injectors. These look exactly like the stock 158s, they have the same plastic cap on the spray side.
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Old 10-16-2015, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarceller View Post
The 0-280-155-715 will NOT just drop in and work. It's funny you found these as I am currently testing these exact injectors in my 3.2L but they flow more fuel than the stock injectors and because they are also hi-impedance injectors they require more injector offset/on time. I had to change several parameters in the DME program to accommodate these injectors. I'm still testing them and so far they work great but they will require a custom chip to use them. Don't bother trying to install these in a stock DME, car will start and run but will run very rich. The only drop in replacements have to be lo-impedance injectors so the injector offset/on times match.

Sal,

While on my search for '97 Neon 4 hole injectors at my local Pick n Pull auto dismantler, I stumbled on these same ...155 715 high imp injectors in a 97 Ford Taurus. I dropped them in my 87 Carrera soon as I got home and was pleasantly surprised. Not only was my idle much smoother but my engine pulled just as strong without any over-rich mixture conditions. My exhaust smells very clean and I cannot detect any odor, just clean air out my tailpipe. My only conclusion is that our air flow meters must be calibrated quite differently since that alone seems like the only variable that I can think of and from my own experience, no two air flow meters are alike and I've tested many.

Meanwhile, I'll keep testing these 97 Duratec injectors before moving on to the ...155 703 '97 Neon 4 hole injectors that they rave about in this forium: http://www.jeepstrokers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1085. Apparently my air flow meter seems to tolerate these modern high imp injectors and now that I am now matching flow rates, my results are much better than the GM multec injectors I tried in the past.


Cheers,

Joe

Last edited by stlrj; 12-03-2015 at 07:51 AM..
Old 12-03-2015, 06:16 AM
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Joe,

You need to get a WideBandO2 installed, do that ASAP. You can not tell mixture any other way. You may be able to tell if it's rich via smell but you have no idea how lean you are. To really evaluate your results you need to have the gauge in the cockpit so you can observe cruise condition as well as tip-in and WOT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stlrj View Post
Sal,

While on my search for '97 Neon 4 hole injectors at my local Pick n Pull auto dismantler, I stumbled on these same ...155 715 high imp injectors in a 97 Ford Taurus. I dropped them in my 87 Carrera soon as I got home and was pleasantly surprised. Not only was my idle much smoother but my engine pulled just as strong without any over-rich mixture conditions. My exhaust smells very clean and I cannot detect any odor, just clean air out my tailpipe. My only conclusion is that our air flow meters must be calibrated quite differently since that alone seems like the only variable that I can think of and from my own experience, no two air flow meters are identical and I've tested many.

Meanwhile, I'll keep testing these 97 Duratec injectors before moving on to the ...155 703 '97 Neon 4 hole injectors that they rave about in this forium: Jeep Strokers • Injector Question. Apparently my air flow meter seems to tolerate these modern high imp injectors and now that I am now matching flow rates, my results are much better than the GM multec injectors I tried in the past.


Cheers,

Joe
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1984 911 Carrera Cab M491 (Factory Wide Body)
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1964 356SC (SOLD)
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Old 12-03-2015, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarceller View Post
Joe,

You need to get a WideBandO2 installed, do that ASAP. You can not tell mixture any other way. You may be able to tell if it's rich via smell but you have no idea how lean you are. To really evaluate your results you need to have the gauge in the cockpit so you can observe cruise condition as well as tip-in and WOT.

Not a bad idea, however, I'm not too concerned about over lean since I have been running that way for decades with little if any adverse consequences, other than my engine temperatures running much cooler than normal and much improved gas mileage. To understand why this works and where I'm coming from, you can Google "lean of peak EGT". The GM multecs I used for many years were flowing closer to 14-16#, far less than the 22# that our stock...158 injectors put out. So lean were these GM injectors that my engine would not start when warm, only after installing an additional enrichment relay. I've also had some experience running overrich resulting in abnormally high engine temps and even experienced an orange glowing cat in burnout mode. I'm quite certain a WideBand O2 would only tell me what I already know which is where I want to be.

I suppose everyone on the Jeep forums where I found a treasure trove of information, would also benefit from a Wideband but no mention of that and yet they seem to be having some impressive results.

http://www.ausjeepoffroad.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92236
This is where I found out about the Taurus/Sable ...155 715 injectors and was surprised that you were testing them too.


Cheers,
Joe

Last edited by stlrj; 12-03-2015 at 01:34 PM..
Old 12-03-2015, 07:34 AM
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Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I couldn't help satisfying my curiosity regarding the ...155 703 2.4L Dodge Caravan vin B injectors that they all rave about in the Jeep forum. Well, to my disbelief, these injectors ran even better than the Taurus 24# Duratec injectors. Smoother idle, peppier off the line and even cleaner burning from what I could tell. From the moment I first started my engine with these new injectors I could tell by the way they made the engine sound that they were even better. Apparently the 24# Taurus injectors seemed a bit rich, which coincides with Sal's findings, whereas the 22# Caravan injectors were just right which just happens to be the same flow rate as the ...150 158 Carrera injectors.

In any case, if anyone is interested, there is a complete list of where these injectors can be found in this Budget injector forum here:
http://www.cherokeeforum.com/f2/more-budget-injector-upgrade-questions-13848/index2/

Next, I'll need to take a trip to see where my gas mileage is.


Cheers,

Joe
Senior PCA member since 1976


Last edited by stlrj; 12-06-2015 at 06:07 AM..
Old 12-03-2015, 10:41 AM
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