Head stud question for RarlyL8

Hey big guy, remember about 6 months ago we were discussing which type of head stud was the best replacement for the ill-fated factory studs? I remember you saying that you used ARP. or something like that on your motor??? I am getting ready to purchase a set and still haven't decided on which studs to buy...
Options:
Raceware....$900!! Ouch
ARP???
Dilvar...
Or these "Micro-encapsulated steel studs...
Any suggestions anyone?


BTW. Dec. 3rd is the deadline I have set for remolal of my motor. Many of you are thinking "Jeez" it's been six months now...
You all HAVE to understand...
I feel like I am trying to do open heart surgery on my mother with a butter knife! I'm trying to get up the nerve to do it!

Wish me luck..

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Leland Pate

___79 SC Targa

Leland,

How about original, plain steel studs just like your upper rows that didn't break or corrode? There may be a superceded later number, but the one I have is 901.101.172.03 ... 24 of those shouldn't break the bank!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Warren, I've never seen those advertised anywhere.
Where could I find those?

Well, give Pelican a shot, since they say they can supply many parts not listed in their catalog!

And, good luck with the open heart surgery! Still planning to do the major work with your dad?

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

I really wish I could...
Our time sched-ules <---"British" don't really work for each other.
He has other obligations this winter and our base goes on stand-by for a deployment when he is free and I can't take leave out of the imediate area.


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Leland Pate

___79 SC Targa

Got a friend with a shop who can get you the friendly price of about half that on the raceware? They may need to be torqued more often than the dilivar. Like Warren says, how about the steel?

Hey Leland - I know what you mean about time passing by. My 930 motor is still torn down with no plans to continue untill after the holidays. I am using ARP headstuds and rodbolts. They maybe overkill for your application, but you never know when the HP bug will bite you and you'll need them. I'm trying to remember what the price was on the studs, didn't seem that bad, I think about $460 for the set. If you are sure that you only want to rebuild your motor back the way it was then you'd be money ahead to replace the broken studs with steel units (I presume only bottom studs were broken).
How's your rice racer doin'? Did you get that Dr. Suise (sp) tranny fluid recycler working?
Hope everyone had a good turkey day!

Well, this is how I see it.
I don't mind spending about $500 for a set of head studs.

I will email Pelican about the steel studs.
What I don't understand about the steel studs is why the factory put steel studs on the top and these Dilvar studs on the bottom.
I have been planning on replacing all 24 for good measure.

If I could get a set of Raceware studs in the $500 to $600 range I think they would be well worth the extra money. Diverdan, where is this friends shop of yours?
I know that raceware is probably overkill...especially for my application...but if I can get a set for little more than what these other studs seem to be going for than maybe I'll just go with the Raceware or ARP.

RarlyL8, do you remember where you got yours from.

Thanks for all the help!

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Leland Pate

___79 SC Targa

Leland, I got my ARP stuff from....ARP. As for the Dilvar vs steel thing, I would guess that Dilvar was used on the bottom heads only due to their location being closer to the elements (rain, salt spray, etc). Steel would corrode quicker.

Leland,

You can buy Raceware studs directly from Race-Tech Engineering in Taylor MI. These are the guys that make them. The cost is about $500. The address and phone no. are

Race-Tech Engineering
12713 Universal Dr.
Taylor, MI 48180

Phone: 800-468-1977
www.wwnet.net/~raceware

I bought mine from them last summer with no problem.

Pat

Sorry about the web address above. The correct address is www.raceware-fasteners.com

Leland, the lower studs were dilivar because dilivar more closely matches the expansion rate of aluminum. (Preventing stud pulling). Since the exhaust side runs MUCH hotter than the intake side, dilivar wasn't really necessary on the top row. BTW, I live in Seattle and like to road trip, so I could probably be persuaded into travelling to Idaho (Udapimp?) to lend a hand if you get in too deep. It would break my heart to see a 911 engine harmed. Also it would be cool to see the full-race sentra in person.

RarlyL8, Does ARP have a website?

PMAC, I checked out Racewares website and it looks like their 24 stud kit is $499. But that dosen't include the $150 for the nuts and $99 for the washers. I don't care how you made 'em...$100 is still crazy for a set of 24 washers!

Here's the thing I don't understand about the Factory steel studs used on the top row.
If dilvar was used on the bottom because it didn't corode as fast and because it had better expansion rates...then why is it a good idea to swap them out with the old type steel studs? What am I missing here?

And I don't get the whole idea of matching the thermal expansion rate of the engine by using the dilvar studs on the bottom and not on the top row. Is the "expansion rate" different from the top row of head studs to the bottom row. I would think that they would be the same and therefore require the same amount of thermal expansion which is why I am so confused as to why two different types of studs were used.
Am I making any sense???

BRAINIAC, a private viewing of the "Pimpster" is possible by appiontment only. Hopefully I won't get in too deep and if I do I certainly hope I don't have to ask anyone to drive from out of state to help me but I do appreciate the offer. Someday I really hope to meet several of you.




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Leland Pate

___79 SC Targa

Leland,

Use the Raceware studs and stock nuts and washers. You can buy these from Pelican for $4.10/ea. for the nuts and $1.10/ea. for the washers, for a total of $125. Or if your parts are in good shape, reuse those.

Pat.

I got responses back from ARP and Raceware in less than an hour after I sent them emails.
It looks like its gonna be something like $750 for the set of racewares and $545 for a set from ARP. Other than RarlyL8s testimony I have never heard anything about ARP. Does anyone have a second opinion or experiences?
Their tensile strengh is about equal to what Raceware advertises (180,000psi) but I have never seen, heard or read about their application on Porsches before.
From what I have heard so far, these ARP studs seem to be the best "bolt for the buck"
( I can NEVER tell my co-workers how much money I spent on these bolts )
Maybe I'll email King Kamaya Maya himself and get his opinion.

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Leland Pate

___79 SC Targa

Leland - I don't know of a web address for ARP, I will find the phone number for you.
Dilivar studs fell out of favor some time ago, many mechanics didn't think they were any better than stock. Seems the surface can corrode just as easily if scrached. I really don't know what the "popular stud of the day" is at this time (maybe Ricky Martin? HA!). My statement about corrosion being a greater risk for the bottom studs is only an educated guess. Haven't read that anywhere. I don't know the thermal expansion rates of the various alloys.
ARP studs come as a kit - all studs, nuts, and washers together. This is how I bought mine.

Guess we posted at the same time. The price they quoted you is higher than mine. This is the kit, right?

[This message has been edited by RarlyL8 (edited 11-29-2000).]

RarlyL8, I found their website and that is the price they have listed. If these studs are on the same level with Raceware than I believe the price is reasonable. I would like to know why every single other set for every single other type of car was not over $200 and the Porsche kit was over $500 though. Porsche tax anyone???
Does anyone know about the reputation of these studs? Would their use on a stock motor be considered overkill? (if so, good)... the only difference between ARP and Raceware that I can tell is the fact that I didn't see any lifetime guarantee on the ARP site that the raceware guys seem to bragg about.
I can swing $545 for a good set of studs.

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Leland Pate

___79 SC Targa

I just got an answer from King Kamaya maya (Bruce Anderson) his response was as follows:

Anything but Dilvar, steel studs would be fine, ARP would be better, and Raceware would be the best.

As of now I am thinking I'll go with ARP.

I still don't understand why dilvar was used on the bottom row if steel studs are OK.
$545 + S&H gets me the whole set (studs, nuts & washers).

I'm still not comfortable with just replacing the bottom row. My mechanic says he rebuilt a SC last winter and it had 8 (8!) broken studs including a couple on the top row. I think I'll play it safe.

Leland, I think the idea is that yes the engine expands at the same rate but the exhaust side is hotter thus will expand more requireing as the thought of the day was the Dilivar on the bottom row. This reducing the pull on the cases as they are basicaly expanding at the same rate with everything else. Once you have time certed the cases you have fixed the weak link and can return to the steel which don't have the nasty reputation of just snapping if you don't like the way you look at them, atleast that is some what the reputation they have earned. I forget though are you doing a 2.7 or a 3.0? I think every one has been talking about replacing all the studs not just the bottoms, it has just come up in conversation that the top are steel.

Leland,

I don't mean to belabor the point, but if 'King of the Black Forrest' said plain steel is OK, then why don't you put aside the difference towards a set of SSI's? I have seen new SSI's for under $750, so don't you think 24 new plain steel OEM studs would be adequate? My guess is under $150 for 24!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa