Opinion: How hard can it be? to replace...
 

Hello Pelicans,

I drove a 1985 carrera for sale by private owner. It pulled a bit to the left and the PPI confirmed problems. My investment in PPI knocked $3,000 off the price of the car, but the repair estimate is $5,700.00. ($3k parts plus tax)

The car needs front calipers, discs, and pads. Rear discs and pads.

Replace oil pressure switch and thermostat O-ring.

Replace oil return tubes.

Replace left front helper fan.

Replace fresh air blower fan.

I was quoted $1,200.00 for labor. And I know that I can buy the parts from Pelican for slightly less than the shop.

I know how to turn a wrench, fix a flat tire, lube a bicycle chain. What part of the above list dare I attempt or am I better off letting my shop do it?

This would be my first 911. I don't even know what oil return tubes look like yet. <smile?>

Included in the repair estimate is a set of tires and alignment. I can't see any reasonable way to save money there.

The compression/leakdown numbers were 2-6% / 170-175 psi on a motor with 99k on the clock. The car seems like it has good bones, but has suffered from a bit of maintenance neglect. PO has been driving on dry rotted tires with a seized brake caliper that caused pulling and shudder up front. I had to point out the puddle of oil underneath it (he says he hardly ever drives it anymore and keeps it on a battery tender).

The other issue for me is more of a market place discussion: If I buy this car for $13,500 and put $6,000.00 in maintenance, will I have a car worth $19,500? Or should I buy a car that has been maintained properly with less miles for the same $20k? I am fishing at the bottom end of the Porsche market.

I almost bought a 1986 with 47k miles in excellent condition for $21k. But I would have to eat macaroni and cheese and switch to dial Internet connection. (kidding sort of...)

Would I be better off with a 1980 SC with 100k miles for 12k that has a thoroughly documented maintance file and was never cheated for attention?

I think my reasonable budget for a well sorted car is about 15-16k plus our unconscionable sales tax of 9% and still have 2k for a maintenance surprise.

If it were me, I'd look for another car! Better maintained!

All of the problems you listed, with the exception of the alignment, are easy enough for the DIY with basic mechanical skills to do. Most of them are in Wayne's 101 Projects for your 911.

I am partial to the 84 to 86 3.2's and would consider most of that repair work as not too difficult. Not sure the oil return tubes is a beginner job, but the caliper rebuild is simple enough as is the rotor replacement. You might consider wheel bearings at the same time as you have to pull the hub off the axle to change the rotors. At the very least, clean and examine them and if they are OK then repack and re-use. You need a good service manual and not the $5 Haynes version. There are also lots of tech articles and "how to" threads with tons of pictures. If you have the time and place to do work AND this is not your primary driver, I'd say you should learn how to do some of this stuff.

If your 911 is your primary daily driver, I would suggest you start with something good and slowly learn about it as you go. If you need A/C you probably want to go newer than the 20 years.
There are a couple cab's for sale in the cars for sale section that you might consider. (no affiliation, but they look nice)

EDIT: just checked the tech article attached. Oil return tube replacement 3 out of 10 degree of difficulty. So maybe it is a first timer project.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/911_oil_return_tube/911_oil_return_tube.htm

The car needs front calipers, discs, and pads. Rear discs and pads. Easy, and probably cheaper on parts than they quoted if you order through Pelican Parts. Rebuilding the existing calipers is not difficult and is much cheaper, but a bit more time consuming.

Replace oil pressure switch and thermostat O-ring. More time intensive, but not difficult. I think it's supposed to be easier if you drop the engine which is not very hard and something everyone should probably do at least once.

Replace oil return tubes. Easy and speedy

Replace left front helper fan. Easy but not necessarily cheap.

Replace fresh air blower fan. Easy but a little time consuming.


As stated, unless you are getting a GREAT deal on this car, you really like projects, or you are on a very limited budget (another potentially serious problem), then you should look for a different car that's got a better PPI and/or better maintenance records.

Tip of the iceberg.

You should be able to find a "no issues" car within your $15k-$16k price range.

The issues you see on this car are a sign of neglect. What else has been neglected, that won't rear its ugly head until you start driving it again (after it has admittedly sat for the most part for some time)? I would keep looking.

I found what might be a "no issues car" in a 1980 911, being offered by a Bentley dealer. Stack of maintenance records and detailed log with 100k miles for $13,000.00. The PO traded it on a Bentley. Would I know the difference between torque and power of an SC and a 3.2? Is it worth the extra $$$ for a 3.2?

I am starting have a greater appreciation for the car I have... I might wind up keeping my 924s. It truly is a no issues car. Why do we always want for more?

Buying a twenty to thirty year old car is risky and feels like labor, as in child bearing, and probably takes nine months to produce a healthy offspring. Premature birth may mean months of hospital stay... :)

I like to add up the pluses and minuses on any prospective car. If you are sure this is all that's wrong, and the interior is great, the paint is great, the tires are high rubber, the wheels are great, the glass is clear, the mechanicals other than what you mentioned are very good, and on and on, then the car is probably a decent buy. As I said weigh the negative against the positive. IOW, don't let a dime hold up a dollar.

But......................

To me the SC seems to have more torque, or thats how it would feel driving qround town, and the 3.2 has more top end power. Both are fun to drive. The carrera has more luxury items which add weight and some of them don't really work(A/C).

Everyone here would say to buy the most porsche you can afford. If you want to spend $15K you will probably find a nicer SC. I think one just sold in virginia for $14K and that was well taken care of. That SC you decribed sounds nice, obviously the prev owner had money and took care of their car. At that mileage hopefully should be a newish clutch and brakes.

There will always be little suprises on a car that is 20 years old.

Good Luck

I just ran through the Pelican parts catalog for all of those items and came up with $902.25.

I used caliper rebuild kits for the front, the OEM brake pads, and added an oil filter. The oil return tubes are ~$40 each, so if you don't really need all 4, it will be that much less.

That list wouldn't scare me away, and nothing on that list is particularly difficult. The blowers are ~$150 each, but they aren't something that you would need to change right away. Depending on how much oil is leaking, the oil return tubes/thermostat/pressure switch may not be urgent either.

Honestly, for a street driven car you may be able to put off the rotors as well. If they measure right at minimum, they are still plenty thick, thicker than a new SC rotor.

Pads and calipers should be addressed right away, but you could do that in a weekend. The entire brake job with rotors would be just over $400 (Or up two twice that if you get expensive brake pads).

I am a big fan of the SC and CIS, but the 3.2 with Motronic is a better engine, except for the rod bolts.

Tom

I echo others in that you can find a better maintained car but if you like to do the work yourself, this may be ok for you.

Some food for thought, if you are seeing $1200 in labor, you are talking about 16 hours of pro labor. For my DIY projects, that translates to about 32 of my real hours to do the jobs.

I would press the owner for the full deduct for the known work because who knows what else will fail in your first year of ownership. If he balks, tell him that you will take the car at his price but he needs to pay for the repairs.

Remember Porsches, while a great car, are not all that rare so you should be able to find the same or better deal elsewhere.

I'm with Milt and others. Most important is the condition of the body, paint and chassis. Mechanical issues can be repaired/replaced.

Not to direct any business from Pelican, but I understand the local auto parts store (Autozone, Pep Boys, etc.) can supply you with rebuilt calipers. I've rebuilt calipers before but a direct bolt-on replacement and exchange might be more attractive considering the punch list of items you have. The rest of the brake parts listed are regular maintenance items.

If you're mechanical, the oil return tubes will just be a slight beyotch to complete, first time. I'd guess $200-$300 for a shop to do it, but make sure the oil is leading from the tubes and not from the pressure switch, rocker shafts, thermostat o-ring, valve cover, cam housing oil line, etc.

R&R pressure switch and thermostat O-ring. Might require a partial engine drop. My guess: $200 + $50 in parts.

Replace left front helper fan. You can do this yourself, and at your convenience.

Replace fresh air blower fan. Same as above.

There. You've got a chunk of change left over. How about inviting us all over for dinner?

Sherwood

Hey Gang,

The owner of this car came back to me accepting my counter offer of $12k. He does not have the time and the resources or the inclination to get the car fixed. I wonder if I can fix the oil leaks, brake job, and new tires and sell the car for a profit towards a 1989?

What would the car be worth all sorted out? Very nice and straight body with original paint black, very nice interior, plus a 2k stereo (I would not have put in the amp, bass tubes etc.)

Jeff,

Being able to turn a wench is one thing. Redoing calipers/disc is another. Each one of these projects needs to be planned out if you have never done and there is always something 'special' about each job. Also you need the confidence to work thru a job once started, especially if its a daily driver.

32 hours, yea, maybe right depending on experience.

Front pads and discs took me 4 hours for 1+ hour (normal) job. Getting dust cap off and 200ft-lb over tighten caliper bolts from last mechanic made it longer.

"Tip of Iceburg" is the other thought I second. Your looking at what you know. It's hard to say what you don't know and you need resources to address them also.

Jeffrey,

I am with Kurt, Milt, and Steve ... right up to the point where you want to make a profit on the car!

Unless I am mistaken about your local marketplace for 911s ... that car has been sitting around a long time for the brakes to have deteriorated that way! It didn't get that way being driven as a daily driver, so, somebody else must have though they would be able to sell it for market value, too! Think again in today's economy! You aren't in LA, or Cali.

If you are a DIY person, that car doesn't sound bad at all. If you want to give it a go fixing it up yourself, fine. Just don't plan on flipping it for a profit! Ain't going to happen as I see it, so you are better off deciding if you want the car as a fun car to keep and drive, IMHO.

If you were to get this car sorted out, I wouldn't see the need for getting an '89. Once you put your blood, $weat, and tear$ into her, you'll have a great car, and there's not enough difference between the SCs and Carreras to make a switch imo.

be patient... keep looking... you'll get a car that you know you like and money well spent. i would get something that you can enjoy driving now rather than stressing over to get it fix. 911's are fun to drive.

A lot of wishful thinking here.
First it was a daily driver? graduating into resale for profit?
It'll always cost more and take longer than expected.
SC or Carrera, there is always the unknown like what type P/C's and broken headstuds and..............
It may not happen but, an engine rebuild is about $4-8k depending. 915 transmission rebuild ~$1-2k.
You need a few more skills than fixing a flat tire or changing a chain on a bicycle to work on a 911.
Get the Bentley manual, dive in and learn. :)

Buying and then selling at a profit is tough. Probably possible, but not with this car. If that is not your goal, if you just want to have a 911 in good shape then........

The deferred maintenance thing is a little scary. There might be more problems you will find over time. This car has not been driven much at all in recent years, and that is not good. Cars need to be driven in order to keep everything working fine.

But really, my sense is that this is a good car but for the problems you state. Good compression. I am a die-hard DIY person, so brake caliper rebuilding is not scary. I regard it as being fairly easy. Rebuild kits are something like $15 to $20 each. I'd be very tempted to use new pistons, which will add to the cost but still not spendy. Oil return tubes are also fairly easy, and not critical. It's just a leak. Thermostat o-ring will be much easier to replace with the engine out. I'm not sure I'd advise you to run away screaming. The things you mentioned are not scary and not nearly as expensive as the quote you are looking at.

$12k on an '85 with issues is not a good deal.

This is the repair estimate. Plus $225 for an alignment, plus $675 for 4 tires mounted and balanced.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1173200710.jpg

Free ride?
 

Jeff,

I am in Jackson, TN. I work between Brownsville and Ripley, and come to Memphis weekly. I have an 83 SC that is in better than average condition, IMHO. My car is NOT for sale (only had it since October!), but I would be willing to give you a ride in an SC to let you feel the difference. And, in a couple of weeks, I may have my euro pre-muffler and M&K 1in1out installed.

PM me with your phone number if you are interested and maybe we can work something out - no promises, as my schedule tends to be hectic most of the time, but we can probably get together sometime. Another suggestion would be for you to check out the Midsouth Region PCA if you are not already a member - I think they let in 924's too... Just kidding....:rolleyes: :D

Here is what I suggest after 5 years of owning and working on a 30 year old 911.

Do not assume you can fix these items, it takes time and patience to learn to be a good mechanic. This list of things will totally overwhelm you as a beginner and it will be a long time before the car gets back on the road. If you really like this car then have all the necessary items (brakes, alignment, fix oil leaks) done by the shop. Get the car back on the road. Then drive it and work on the other items on the list. Driving it will motivate you to make it better. You will not be motivated to fix it when its sitting in your garage for what will likely be months if you DIY.

Finally.. only buy it if you love it, don't buy it because you think its a good deal. The right car will come along.

Jesse
76' 911S

amen! to that jesse

I bought it...
 

I put a deposit down. Picking it up next Tuesday. The body and interior is better than my first impression. Take a look?

http://www.mpix.com/Customer/ViewAlbum.aspx?a=1159705&c=58ipmuf48jfn702ak5mc

Re: I bought it...
 

Well in that case... welcome to the club! Make sure you join the Midsouth Region PCA if not already a member. See you on the road. I'll be driving this:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1173214339.jpg

Shane

Looks very interesting, at least from a stereo aspect. It would appear he's installed a 5 channel system?? Interesting. Spent some money there!

Fix the brakes and get driiving! Congrats!

Yes, I believe it is a 5 channel system. It definitely rocks...

I joined the PCA when I bought my 924s two years ago... I will have to make the time to go to some activities.

it looks good jeffrey. congrats, welcome. yeah, i feel you. looking at that car makes me want to buy it.

I noticed that the oil gauge was low... So I asked for a paper towel to check it using the dip stick. We popped the hood and I asked him where is the dipstick? He did not know, and I could not find it. He said he just added oil when the gauge was low.

I had agreed to buy and gave my deposit. But I would have felt a lot better if he knew how to check the oil... Is there a dipstick on a 911?

<Jeffrey asks with sheepish embarassment>

Uggh, yeah you definitely need 101 Projects for your 911.

Ignore the gauge, seriously. The way to check the oil is to let the car get to operating temperature, park it on a flat level surface, and with the motor running, unscrew the oil cap. The dipstick should be in the tube, if not, you will need to get one. If it is in there, take it out, clean it off and put it back in, checking the oil then. Don't, and I mean, don't drop it into the oil tank. That sucks, trust me.

If you just use the gauge, it is very easy to overfill the oil.

Bill

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/911M/POR_911M_ENGoil_pg7.htm#item30

Here is a link to the Pelican Part Order Page, it shows you the oil cap and the Dipstick so you know what to look for.

Bill

^^ What he said, LOL.

The good thing is that the PO probably drove it tamely, so oil starvation wasn't an issue. And 911s hold a case of oil, so running low is tough.

Jeff,

That's a nice looking ride, and the punch repair list is not bad, barring something huge (rebuild), I think you got a good deal. I agree w/ others tackle one task at a time (brakes first) and enjoy your new car. Congratulations.

Marco