Starter removal

I've determined that I do indeed have power when I crank at the switch and each of the two 14-pin connectors on the left side of the engine compartment. I haven't been able to measure if I have power at the solenoid. From laying underneath I can't clearly see where/how the yellow wire connects to the solenoid. Is this wire bolted to the solenoid or does it use a spade connector? Is it possible to remove the starter top bolt w/o dropping the engine or is a partial drop necessary? If I can get the starter out I'd have a better shot at cleaning and checking the connections.

------------------
Greg
72 911S

Greg,

It is a spade connector. Yes, the starter can be removed without dropping the engine ... it takes a 10 mm Allen drive and an extension. You can see things better by taking a 'look' over the transaxle with the car up on stands, with the driver's side wheel off.

------------------
Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

[This message has been edited by Early_S_Man (edited 11-28-2000).]

Guess how I know:

Maybe, you are not able to remove the starter without partial engine drop:
On some models, the factory used a hex head screw instéad of the allen bolt, and there is usually NO way to unscrew it.
If you find an Allen bolt, consider yourself lucky...

Jens

------------------

Thanks,

The lower bolt is definitely a 10mm allen. I'll assume the upper is as well until I find out differently. I will take a look from the driver's side with the wheel off. Maybe that will be enough to see where the wire has gone w/o removing the starter.


------------------
Greg
72 911S

I am not sure of the room in a '72 but I changed mine out without dropping the engine. I was able to jack up the rear passenger sire of the car. Lying directly under the starter head toward the front of the car I was able to reach over the trans from the drivers side and remove the allen bolt. However my car is an '82. I'm not sure if there is enough room over the trans in your car. I was really surprised how much room there was over mine. Hopefully yours is as easy as mine. It took me about 30-45 minuted to change mine out.



------------------
Gunter
'82 SC Targa

FYI

I spent what seemed to be hours trying to get that top 10mm allen off. I was just begining to believe it wasn't a 10mm allen when I managed to get a rock, stuck in with gooh, out of the 10mm allen bolt.

ted



------------------
'80 911-SC Targa

One more thing ... there are two different Allen nuts used, and the upper one has a special clearance 'radius-cut' ... you can put a regular 17 mm nut back on the lower stud, then there will only be one, special, Allen nut to worry about keeping track of while the starter is out!

------------------
Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Well, I believe it is possible to remove a starter w/o dropping the engine, except if you have a Sportomatic. :-(

There is a large round drum on the drivers side of the transmission. I was able to get my arm up between the drum and transmission and get a allen socket an extension onto the upper nut, but there is just not enough room to get a racket on there and be able to turn it. I still might be able to do something if I get a couple more extensions and a pivoting adapter.

Also the yellow wire is bolted to the solenoid, instead of being connected w/ a spade connector. At this point I think its safe to say that either 1) the solenoid went bad or got stuck, or 2) the wire broke somewhere between the solenoid and the last 14-pin connector.

If I can't get the starter out this way, it looks like I'll have to drain those 9.5 quarts I just put in and drop the engine. If it turns out to be the wire, that will also give me access to remove the entire section and find the break.

------------------
Greg
72 911S

Help!

I've got power at the ignition switch and both of the 14-pin connectors in the engine bay but no power at the solenoid. Either the yellow wire broke or something is shorted out somewhere. Taking a look at the electrical diagram once again, it shows that the yellow wire leaves the last 14-pin connector and goes to both the starter solenoid and the thermo-time switch. Does anyone know the location of the thermo-time switch and its function? I suspect its the connector on the top of the breather cover. I disconnected the wires at the location because I was going to replace the breather cover gasket. Would it have shorted if I got the wires put back on reversed?

------------------
Greg
72 911S

Greg,

The Thermo-Time Switch is on the left side of that big, oval cover that has the crankcase vent hose attached to it ... on top of the crankcase, to the left of thermostat and oil pressure sender location. It is the control switch for the cold-start enrichment solenoid on top of the MFI filter assembly at the back of the relay/fuse/regulator/CDI-unit console bolted to left side of engine compartment.

------------------
Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Thanks Warren.

If I had reversed the wires to the thermo-time switch could that short out the connection to the solenoid?

Do you have a diagram which shows the configuration of which wires goes to which connector on the switch?

------------------
Greg
72 911S

Greg,

The two terminals are marked 'G' and 'W,' probably on the Bakelite part of the switch, and Yellow goes to 'G' and Red/Black striped wire to 'W' ... and, yes, if you reversed the wires ... that Thermo-Time Switch contact is shorting out your ignition switch at any temp below about 107 degrees F, which ain't good for either Ig. sw or Thermo-Time switch!!!

I think you found one of those NASA-type single-point failures that blew-up the Oxygen tank on Apollo 13!!! You didn't happen to smell the ignition switch frying, did you?

------------------
Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

I think I did switch these wires, when I put the engine back in the car. If I understand you correctly. The spade connectors are the same size and near each other. But of course one turn of the key told me I had guessed wrong so I switched them. My cold start valve is clearly working fine, so no damage occurred, apparently.

------------------
'83 SC

Nope. No burning smells. Maybe that's not it then. I'll double check the thermo-time switch connections. The only think left would be a broken wire.

------------------
Greg
72 911S

Disconnected the thermo-time switch and now the starter cranks! I cannot find any markings on the Bakelite connector, but each of the two spade connectors are different sizes and appear to go on only one way. The yellow wire's connector has been replaced and now the wire is slightly too short. Its possible that before I cleaned this area up the red/black wire was connected but the yellow was not. After looking at it again, I pretty sure I did not swap the connectors.
Can the thermo-time switch go bad? Is it okay to run w/o this switch connected?

The car has always been hard to cold start. I've assumed up until now that it was due to the MFI thermostat being filthy.

------------------
Greg
72 911S

Greg,

With a digital multimeter, the 'switch' or 'W' connector should measure less than one Ohm to the body of the assembly, while the heater element, or 'G' connector should measure something in the 2-6 Ohm range.

And, I guess you have already experienced what starting your car without the enrichment solenoid working is like! I can guarantee you will like it better with that circuit working properly! I think I would find some yellow wire and heat-shrink tubing ... and extend that lead so you can get the circuit working properly!

------------------
Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Took the thermo-time switch out of the car. Found the 'G' and 'W' markings. It was wired correctly.

The resistance between 'W' and the body is 0.004 ohms. Between 'G' and the body, and between 'G' and 'W' when cold is 23.4 ohms.

I hooked up a 12v lead to 'G' and hooked up a ground lead to the body of the switch. There are 12v coming out of 'W' when the switch is cold. I heated up the switch and saw no change whatsoever.

It sure looks like this switch is bad. I'll order a new one on Monday. Called the local dealer earlier today, they're out of stock. The part is normally $50.55.

Warren, thanks for all the help.

------------------
Greg
72 911S

[This message has been edited by ggalloway (edited 12-02-2000).]

Put in the new thermo-time switch today. Car cranked right up. Thanks for all the help.

Now it won't hold idle until its completely warmed up, then it idles around 700. It may be time to bite the bullet and buy that set of factory manuals.

------------------
Greg
72 911S