Jack-How much cash?

Hi Jack Olsen! You know, we've probibly all seen your website and pics of your really nice restoration and upgrades. I'm wondering, and maybe some others too, about your expense. Many of us on this forum are doing the same thing, but are not as far along. Is it possible for you to kind of run an accurate talley and share it with us? It may may a big difference as to how we plan our rebuilds. Perhaps you've done that already, but I haven't seen it. Thanx!

Unreasonable request.

It may not be "civilized", but I wouldn't think less of Jack for divulging his expenses. Other folks do it all the time, keeping a record of their restoration costs.

Divulging information like that unsolicited it bragging; sharing desired information is not.

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Mark Szabo
1986 911 Targa 3.2
1987 Escort 5-speed 1.9
The 911 Gallery

I'm happy to share the costs of the different things I've done to the car, but I honestly haven't kept any kind of accurate records so far (tax time and a visit to the accountant will bring the final, sobering figure). Generally speaking, though, I think I've paid significantly more than was strictly necessary -- and I did that for two reasons.

One, I didn't have a clear plan, right from the time I got the car. Initially, I just fixed up what I had, which meant I spent a whole lot on things like new calipers and rotors for a brake set-up that I'm now looking to replace. I think a lot of guys end up doing this, unfortunately. You have the motor that came with the car, which you modify incrementally to get better performance, as money comes in, and then you hit a wall where the next step (if it's an engine swap or a newer model of 911) is going to mean throwing away a lot of old work to make room for the new. It's sort of like fixing up the kitchen in the small house before the wife convinces you that it's time to buy a bigger place.

Secondly, I didn't do enough of the work myself. My work schedule has been really crazy for about four years in a row, now, so a lot of what I've paid for has been labor.

I think that a car like mine could be put together for less than $20,000 , as long as the goal, right from square one, was to build a modified early 911 with a 3.6 liter engine and a handful of suspension, brake and peripheral improvements. The best path would be to put it together slowly, as good deals present themselves, without the idea that you'll have a running car until the end of the process. In my case, I wanted to be driving right away, and I often ended up paying handsomely for that privilege.

My actual, total expenses -- and this includes everything from the car, the paint, and all the mechanical work, to about $2,500 worth of expenses on the road, getting the thing fixed, and then shipped home from New Mexico, to track fees and (my insane) insurance, has been about $35,000. I think the realistic piece of that that would represent the cost of just the car, the upgrades and the restoration, for me, would be $27,000.

The new brakes, when I finish that part of the job, may push that number very close to $30,000.

Now, $30,000 is a heck of a lot for a 28-year-old car. It's less (by almost half) than a Boxster S, certainly. But a Boxster S retains more resale value than my car has.

Then again, I don't plan on ever selling my car, and a Boxster looks like... well, a Boxster. And Boxsters are as common as dirt in this part of the country. My car is pretty unique, wherever it goes, with a power-to-weight ratio that is unrivaled by most cars (and even most Porsches) on the road. It's exactly the car I wanted, which renders economic arguments -- for me, at least -- beside the point.

And if you take your time and do it for closer to $20,000, then it's a pretty great value. You've got to love Porsches, of course, and you have to see real value in the looks and weight of the earlier cars. But if what you want is a classic 911 with a whole lot of power, then I'd say this route is worth it.

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Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 12-19-2000).]

Very cool, Jack. You've got me thinking about what *my* plan is once my current 911 is paid off. I'm almost certainly not going to sell it or trade it in - I might buy another 911 for a daily driver and set my existing car up as a track car. I'd like to learn from your mistakes, if I could

One other thing: In terms of bang for the buck, you win over the Boxster, a car costing as you pointed out more than twice as much. Let that assauge your wounds over spending too much!

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Mark Szabo
1986 911 Targa 3.2
1987 Escort 5-speed 1.9
The 911 Gallery

Jack,

I don't think you made any mistakes along the way ... of course your misadventure down near the border was avoidable, had your hired help in Chicago been even half-competent in inspecting the car before you left, but that wasn't/isn't your fault!

And, since a 'catalog' doesn't exist for automotive 'remakes,' we all have to make choices as they present themselves to us, and I would say you did extremely well, considering that other people have gone practically broke, gotten divorced, or worse over similar projects that never even got finished! I also strongly disagree with the idea that there is a mean 'ogre' somewhere closeby just waiting to tell you that you spent too much money, just because someone, somewhere out 'there' says it isn't 'WORTH WHAT YOU HAVE IN IT' ... as many in print, including Bruce Anderson, like to say!!! You have your dream car, and who cares if you spent a little more than you would like to get it!

People who buy brand-new vehicles like $40-50K SUV's do it every day of the week, all over the country ... and seem to be proud of the results, regardless of the fact that in a couple of years their 'dream' will depreciate by more than $20K very, very rapidly!!!

I could very easily spend more than what you did on your engine on a 'dream' transaxle from Andial ... I'm probably not going to do that, but it would be very easy with just a phone call or two!



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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Thanx, Jack- and Mark and Warren. Your remarks seem to justify for me the expenses I've put out so far, and help me feel good about the smaller expenses I'll put into it to finish. I'll probibly have about 15k in my 70T by time I'm done. I bought a nicely rebuilt 2.7 ($4200) and an excellent wrecked car (identical & complete sans engine, tires and seats $900) to help with my project. The only new stuff is rubber and bushings. It helps that my original had many upgrades too. I'm doing every stitch with my own hands (brag), but I couldn't afford it otherwise. To me It's worth it and I'll be very proud of what I've done. I've a lot of experience building bikes, but other than a throwaway Triumph TR7 this will be my first real car build. I miss the Harley Sportster I traded for it, but hey- I know I'll have more fun with this on these Ozark twisties and more driving days of the year too. Thanx again!

I always come back to Jack's comment to me many moons ago when he thought the final number would be about 26k (of which he is not far off)

He said he figured he could spend that much for a brand new Camry or he could have his dream car. Not a tough choice in my mind!

I even used his logic on my wife, with some amount of success. This along with the idea that I have been toying with..."If not now, when?" If I work hard why can't I play hard with the toys I want?

Ok Ok I'm finished.

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Mark Isaak
'74 Targa

From the Rubyiat of Omar Khayam:

"If of thy goods thou art bereft
And two loafs alone to thee are left
Take one to sell and with the dole
Buy some hyacinths and feed thy soul."

Market value is one thing.
The enjoyment value I place on my car is something else. Few agree with my valuation and I don't care.
Obviously, Jack went and bought himself some hyacinths. Kudos to Jack.

David

Heck, yeah, I'll have some hyacinths -- whatever they are -- so long as they don't stain the leather.

Thanks for the support, guys. But I may have miscommunicated in my post. I don't have any regrets about the money I've spent on the car. I just didn't want my particular history to discourage anyone else from trying to put together a great car because of the dollar figure I ended up hitting. As Adgx makes clear, it can be done on a very reasonable budget. I could have put this car together for less, but that would have meant more waiting and more time taken away from my work (which is what's paying for all of this). To me, the extra dollars were worth it. I just wanted to make it clear that the same car could be put together for less.

The one neophyte mistake I think I did make was driving probably within a couple hundred miles of Warren's on my way to L.A., before breaking down at the New Mexico border -- when a casual glance by him would probably have revealed that one of my starter wires was unsecured over the rear passenger axle. By driving past Warren, I missed the chance to get that secured, and also to buy him the six hundred or so beers that I owe him for all the advice I've gotten here since then!

With creating a dream 911, I think you've really got to have a good handle on what you can afford to spend (or stress, divorces and bankruptcy fire sales follow), and then find the best bang for the buck you can get in that dollar range. In my case, that's what I did, and I haven't looked back since.

Do I think it's worth it to keep putting money into this car? Absolutely. (In fact, when someone posted about the $29,000 2001 turbo motor that P.A.P. was selling, it got me thinking about what might lie a few years down the road. Imagine... 400+ reliable, streetable horses in a 2500 pound 911...)

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Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 12-19-2000).]

Right Jack! My dad's always getting on to me for putting money into projects that he says should go to the crusher. He's an old time mechanic- so was grampa. Funny- he's worked on motors all his life as a profession, but never built his own dream. I'm not sure if he ever really had one other than raising us brats. I didn't want to be a mechanic by trade, but ended up building "dream" bikes that I threw a lot of dollars at only to trade them off for another to throw dollars at.

I dunno, some people may get off staring at dollar bills, but I prefer a slick motor machine to drool over. I love it when people come up to me a the gas station and tell me their stories of when they had this or that.

Problem is- I want to have all these different cars and motorcycles, but can only afford one at a time, so I fix em up, ride em hard and trade em off for the next one.

Except maybe this time. I've put more effort into restoring this car than I have even on a "from scratch" Harley. You know, you can completely build one of those nowadays from off the shelf parts and never use a genuine harley part. I see grandmas riding them. Thing is- I think for the same money, I'm gonna have, with this 911, a much more satisfying ride. I've had it over a year and the only ride I took was the 100 miles from purchase to home. It was old and wore out, yet I fell in love.

So I guess what I'm saying is- If it makes you happy and satisfied- Damn the torpedos. Make it what you want.

When I see what cars cost these days, and the value they impart on their owners, I think you have one hell of a deal Jack! Very fine ride with a major league future ahead of it. Not only will you enjoy every minute of owning and driving it and have no problem passing it on to a future owner, but you have created something that will be turning heads for years after you have lost track of it- and thats pretty cool.

The other really nice accomplishment is to get over the learning curve on how to do a project Porsche right, and from my perspective, come out a winner. If this is your first Porsche, you are way ahead of me. I am reevaluating my game plan.

Glad you shared the info, I only posted "unreasonable request" to get you off the hook.

Joe
'80 SC Targa

Yeah, it was money well spent Jack. I'm ashamed, and I mean ashamed to admit, I paid 24k for my car from California Cars. I went through a dealer on Rep alone and got, well, burnt a bit.
And I've spend around 7k on the car since I had it...maybe up to 10k, I dunno. I'll dump another 15k into it within the next year.

That's why I work though. If it weren't for Porsches and pussy, I'd be naked in some corn field, dropping acid, and waiting for an enlightened state of mind.



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Kurt B
1984 911 Carrera Cabriolet
75 914 1.8

Kurt and I have some things in common.

Warren could stay drunk the rest of his life on the beers we owe him.

Jack's got more than twice as much car as a, what do they call them...Boxster. Most if not all of us COMPLETELY understand Jack's project and we shodul all send him $50 for keeping us entertained with the project. Jack's got courage...something I see so rarely it's easy to spot.

Go, Jack, GO.

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'83 SC

Go, Jack, GO.

Ain't the internet grand?

Thanks, everyone. Let's all hold onto our $50, though, so that we're ready to buy Warren's book when it comes out.

Kurt and I have some things in common.

I hope it's not the standing-in-the-cornfields thing. Kurt, man, don't mix psychedelics and P-cars. It'll make those climate controls really confusing.

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Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 12-20-2000).]

DAVIDM

I agree with you.

Jack, tells us in what order would you do things if you had to do over again. I am cooking up a similar plan for my '77, but I am thinking of doing the Suspension/brakes first, body & wheels second, and the motor last. Do you see any problem with this plan? Since you have been there and done it all, your the man to ask...

Thanks from me too for all your cool stories...

My hat's off to you, Jack for creating a car that right now I can only dream about and for devulging your out of pocket expenses. You did rightiously! Someday I may create that, but for the meantime I will enjoy installing my 930 3.3 in my 80 SC. Due to low funds and time this will probably take me a few years, but should put me in the vehicle for around $11k before paint and brakes and body mods and ?????????????? But just to get the thing running, I'm talking at least 8 years!(There are other concurrent projects.) You are driving yours NOW!!!!

VIPRKLR, I see no problem with doing things in that order. The only hitch might be with the rear suspension. If you're swapping in a heavier engine, you'll want a different ratio between front and back torsion bars (or coil-overs) than with a lighter engine. Just remember to plan ahead, and anticipate that change (if that's the case).

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Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe

Jack and others,

Your reference to the Boxter S made me go back and look again at the September 2000 issue of Road & Track, and the roadster test that included the Boxster S ans Honda S2000 ... and all I can say is that you don't have anything to worry about out on the highway from any of the hi-tech bunch, and that as impressive as those new engine specs look on paper, the lightest of them, the Honda S2000, is pushing an extra 500 lbs around, and the Boxster is burdened by 700 lbs more than you have!!! So, even though the 0-60 times are respectable in the mid-fives, by the time they get to 80, the steam is running out, so quarter mile times in the 'fourteens' make them quite mediocre by today's standards! Not too impressive, compared to American pony-cars, or the Corvettes and Vipers that lead the performance envelope on this side of the pond!!!

Black Beauty, on the other hand, should be in the five second flat vicinity, and 13.5-to-13.8 second range for the quarter mile, pretty respectable for a 28-year old 'new' car that weighs 2500 lbs!

And, in a literal sea of Jellyfish/Flounder/Porpoise shaped generic automotive flotsam, into which the Boxster S blends perfectly, Black Beauty still stands out against the crowd ... just as its' breatheren did it the mid-'60's with a timeless design profile!

Long live INDIVIDUALITY!!!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa