Is *this* the state of sports car racing?

[Doug Zielke]

I just started to watch the Daytona Rolex Sports Car race on Speed.
There appears to be *NO* spectators in the stands. As in, NONE!

This is great racing action! They turn left *and* right!
What is wrong with this picture?
Has NASTYCAR totally poisoned the minds of motorsports fans?

(Go Racers Group!)

[cegerer]

Looks pretty bad, doesn't it! I don't even see anybody in the infield, much less the grand stands! I think the NASCAR-GrandAm series plays second-fiddle to ALMS. Most of the ALMS races have been fairly well-attended this year. Maybe the GrandAm's 'Daytona Prototypes' will help out next year? -- Curt

[cegerer]

Of course, then there's the IRL who also has so few fans they're changing car spec's next year so each fan can ride along with a driver!

[makaio]

I here they will have to change passengers whenever they pit .

[nostatic]

or at least change the passenger's underwear

[cstreit]

Well it's certainly the state of Sports Car racing in the US. Plenty of you guys who have been overseas know that you can ask ANYONE over there who there favorite soccer team and F1 driver are and they'll have an instant answer, and 3 other people standing nearby to disagree...

Brian Redman is the main event for me, with 500 cars and 5 digit spectator numbers, but the rest are slim.

I've often wondered what it is about Sports Car vs. NASCAR that attracts your "average" American...

Couple things I've thought about it...

1) Short attention spans work better with circle tracks (seen MTV lately, try and catch more than a 3 second cut)
2) Largely American driver population in NASCAR
3) It's easier to afford a Monte Carlo or Ford than a Ferrari or Porsche, buy the car of your hero...
4) NASCAR provides parking, stands, beer, and brats... Road Racing often happens on tracks out in the boonies without as many modern conveniences.
5) NASCAR was easier to understand in it's inception.

SO despite the beautiful nature of tracks like The Glen, Road America, etc... tracks like Indy and others may help increase specatorship, televising, and in the end, popularity.

This would be a boon to guys like me, when I see the worst NASCAR, Dirt Track, and drag racer getting MUCH more sponsorship, it kills me, but at least I know why...

[Chuck Moreland]

NASCAR- Relatable cars (at least in pretence), home grown drivers, and you can see the whole track from your seat.

[dd74]

is what I once heard NASCAR brings in yearly. Sounds high, but when one considers all the endorsements each driver gets, plus NASCAR's probable cut of each driver's endorsements, not to mention television rights - all of this in varying classes of NASCAR racing, who knows? It's a huge business, regardless.

Chris and Chuck are right when it comes to what's relatable. Also, I believe there's been a huge boom in the event since 9/11. Almost all of the drivers are homegrown.

There'd be more F1 racing here (and probably other types) if it wasn't so cost prohibitive to get the teams into the U.S.

There once was a campagin to get the European four-door sedan series (Honda Accords, Peugeot, Vauxhall and others) here in the U.S., but NASCAR stopped the whole idea.

Conversely, NASCAR-like events are succeeding in Europe.

Was Mario Andretti the only non-American to win Daytona?

[cegerer]

"There appears to be *NO* spectators in the stands. As in, NONE!"

AutoWeek has confirmed your observation, Doug! "... the Rolex Series has almost no fan base worth mentioning. While perhaps a few thousand were milling the infield at Daytona, the big grandstands were without a single soul."

The article goes on to discuss the big changes next year. It doesn't paint a pretty picture (unless you like NASCAR-type racing). Here's a few buzz-phrases from the article:

"a step backwards"
"NASCAR-ization of sports car racing"
"kit cars"
"the word ugly has come up more than once"

And the quote of the day from the Grand Am president:

We want a car that appeals to the casual fan, the fan on the street. We're not so concerned about the purist sports car fan."!!

I guess they want us serious sports car fans to patronize the ALMS. No problem. -- Curt

[Doug Zielke]

Curt, while I thank you for pulling up this thread, and adding the new information, it's very discouraging indeed.

"NASCAR-ization of sports car racing"

Yeah, that about sums it up alright.

We can only hope Don Panoz stays the true course with the ALMS series. If not, for me at least, there is still m/c racing.

[jluetjen]

I agree that the crowd situation sucks - but it's not clear to me that we don't see the past through rose colored glasses. I was enjoying "Wheels of Thunder" (AKA: The Speed Merchants) and the '72 Sebring race only had about 6 prototypes at the front, and only 2 teams in the running -- Ferrari and Alfa. Back in the days of the 917, it was not uncommon for the winning margin to be a lap or more, often with third or fourth another lap or two behind 2nd -- and this was in a 600 mile race. In many respects hardly great racing.

Now on the other hand, there are a couple of awsomely managed series out there. My personal favorite is the "Speedvision" GT and Touring races. Both have large close fields, cool cars and a lot of great racing. To be honest, I even enjoy the 1 hour races since they seem to fit my shortened attention span.

I agree that the ALMS is pretty good, but it still suffers from the overdog problem (ie: if you don't have a Direct Injection Audi, you're not going to win) which has plagued endurance racing since the '60's. As usual, it will most likely require a rules change to stir up the field, just like it did in '71, '76, the 956/962 era, the F1 based era and then the current flat bottomed era.

But then I love watching the Runoff's too! Heck, it's just a bunch of amateurs, but I love the effort they put in. One day maybe I'll be there...

[racemor]

Yes, the crowds for GrandAm are terrible. But I think a lot of this is due to the lack of quality of the field and the fact that spotscar racing fans are interested in the cars. The race at VIR recently was pathetic, a practice session for the Lista team.

But I think ALMS is a different case. This could be seen by anyone that was at Road Atlanta for the Petite LeMans or the 12 Hours of Sebring. The crowds were huge!! The biggest I have ever seen at Road Atlanta. The PLM field had a good number of cars that had not run the rest of the year and the race has built a good reputation for close finishes, sometimes for overall, sometimes for class wins as in this year's race between the Ferrari and Corvette.

True, the Audis are dominant. But the variety of a strong field draws a crowd. I'm not too sure GrandAm's spec racers are going to get the crowds up. We'll see next year.

And John's right, the World Challenge, especially Touring, is the absolute best racing in the country! Ive seen them in person 4 times this year and at every race the headline ALMS or TransAm events could not compare the the World Challenge action.

Tom

[ChrisV]

So where were all you guys? And where are you at the local tracks?

Circle tracks can be put up in local fiargroiunds, where you can take a beat up older car (including things like VW Rabbits for Fever Four racing) and start racing for very litle money. But unlike road racing, and autocross, it's easy for spectators to see the WHOLE track AND instantly see the competition level (the former is hard to do at a road course, and the latter is virtually impossible at an autocross).

It's then easy to work your way up through the rankings until you can land more sponsirs, and all the while your hometown fans can easily watch you. With our busy scedules, it's easy to take a an hour or two out of an evening and hit the local fairgrounds and cheer on a neighbor on the track. Harder to do with a road course (beenthere, done that).

Circle track has a long history, reaching back at least as far as the Ronman Chariot races, which were put on in the Colosseums for the same reasons.

Since that's how the locals start out, then it's logical that the big time tracks follow the same patterns.

Add to that the fact that even the top drivers are usually quite accessable and genial, and you have a good way to get a fan base for real humans driving the cars, rather than the typical image of a pretty boy primadonna that the F1 stars have earned for themselves over the years.

Lastly, the elitist bull about simple minds is just that: elitist bull. As a northwesterner, who is into road racing and autocross, and a sports car owner who is into traditional sports cars and Porsches (having had many of each) it pains me to hear people like you being as closed minded as you people are. I can love road racing, autocross, WRC and NASCAR. Why is it so hard for you? It takes a lot more skill and strategy than you guys give it credit for. The fan base isn't as much southern redneck stereotypes as you might think, And it's appeal really doesn't have anything to do with people having a short attention span.

[cstreit]

Slow down there killer!

I wasn't going to reply, but comparing NASCAR to the Roman Charriot races is just a tad too dramatic for me.

Secondly to my comments about attention spans were (and I quote) "speculation". But to back it up with your logic:

You say NASCAR is popular because it's accessible to the average joe. (I agree). Simple fact that the attention span of your average joe is declining. NASCAR format and televised races cater to this, plain and simple. (Just like CNN, MTV, etc..) No meat, just all dressing.

Is it elitist? Have you taken a good look around at the crowd drawn to NASCAR vs. a good road race? Did you see anything different about the people there? Of course you did! What were those things? Does that mean one crowd is BETTER than the other? Of course not. Are they different? You betcha!

So why don't YOU tell US the difference between the average road race fan and the average NASCAR fan?

[cegerer]

"I agree that the ALMS is pretty good, but it still suffers from the overdog problem "

I'm not sure that's a problem? The list of overdogs throughout history is no less than a 'who's who' of legendary racecars. I was at Sebring this year amongst a huge crowd and it was quite a thrill to watch the Audi's decimate the field.

I guess we're down to the age-old racing argument of drivers vs. engineers (or to quote a recent thread, the footballs vs. the quarterbacks ) . Tom hit the nail on the head: " ... sportscar racing fans are interested in the cars. " I know that's what attracts me to sportscar racing and turns me off from NASCAR and the IRL. I really don't care about watching a bunch of equally spec'd and prepared cars racing each other. I want to see somebody come up with the 'better mousetrap' and dominate! -- Curt

[cegerer]

"So why don't YOU tell US the difference between the average road race fan and the average NASCAR fan?"

Chris, I can only ad some anecdotal evidence to the debate:

I've been to probably 30-40 major sportscar races and 1 NASCAR race. On the 2nd lap of the NASCAR race I was hit in the head with an empty Budweiser can thrown from the bleachers above. I've never been hit in the head with a beer can at a sportscar race - not even a Lowenbrau can! True story. -- Curt

[jluetjen]

I have to admit - NASCAR racing isn't bad. Only the Big Time NASCAR racing is boring (to me). I love the local stuff. Why? At the local level you can see the guys over-drive the cars, they make mistakes and rise to overcome them. The budgets are so small that you see a fair amount of mechanical creativity which is comparable to what Curt was describing (I love to see a "better mousetrap" myself!). But by the time you get to BGN and WC, forget it. It's 3 hours of cars droning around in circles. I agree that inside the cars there is a huge amount of strategy and an incredible subtilty in setting the car up to be fast. What of that do I see from the stands? Nada. It's just a lot of big noisy cars droning in circle - and it often puts me to sleep!

The only exception is when the WC guys and the BGN guys run on a road course. In that case, it's a lot more like watching your local short track again. (See my comments above.)

[dd74]

Originally posted by cegerer
"So why don't YOU tell US the difference between the average road race fan and the average NASCAR fan?"

Chris, I can only ad some anecdotal evidence to the debate:

I've been to probably 30-40 major sportscar races and 1 NASCAR race. On the 2nd lap of the NASCAR race I was hit in the head with an empty Budweiser can thrown from the bleachers above. I've never been hit in the head with a beer can at a sportscar race - not even a Lowenbrau can! True story. -- Curt

One thing to add to this: I knew a guy who worked summers as an "usher" at Darlington. He never mentioned beer bottles as a problem there. What he was amazed by were the countless partially-eaten fried chicken parts that the crowd liked to hurl at one another.

[zuffenhausen]

Originally posted by cstreit
So why don't YOU tell US the difference between the average road race fan and the average NASCAR fan?

The average road racing fan used to flip over busses in the bog at Watkins Glen.

-zuff

[Efrain68912]

Why is there no fan base for the Grand Am Series?

First of all, the ALMS gets all of the attention, and rightly so I believe. The racing is better and more enjoyable to watch, and the cars are all interesting - and, for the most part, there is name brand recognition. Audis and Cadillacs and (Ford powered) Panoz' with Vipers, 996s, and Modenas in the lower divisions.

Meanwhile, at Grand Am, we have....Judd-powered-Dallaras? Cool car, no doubt, but "Joe Average" doesn't care.