Electrical Problem - Dead Car

[Kaliv]

I have a 1987 Porsche 911 Carerra. I was driving down the road yesterday in 5th gear when I heard a quick and loud buzzing sound. I let up on the gas and a big puff of black smoke came out from the luggage compartment. So pulled off the highway at the next exit and being new to driving the vehicle, I stalled it. When I went to start it again, everything went dead.

I had my emergency flashers on and my headlights. When I tried to start it, they all went out. Nothing would work, not the windows, the door lock, nothing electrical.

I have it back in my garage, but I still don't know what the problem is or even where to look. I know the battery is working because if I turn the key one click, I see some voltage reader turn on. I click the key once more and everything goes dark. I try to turn the key a bit further to start it and I get nothing. Note, I had the driver side window down to air out the smell before I stalled it. After letting it sit in the garage over night, I was able to have enough power in the second key click position to get it back up and shut. But as it reached the top, the car went dead again.

I was under the impression that all the fuses and such were with the engine. Anyone have any clues on what would be in the luggage compartment that went bad and made the black smoke?

Thanks.

[Grady Clay]

Kaliv,

Welcome to the Forum.
You will find a lot of help here.

The battery area is the first place to look. Remove the trunk carpet and pull back the driver’s side side carpet (there are snaps). Look at the battery connections and associated wires, the fuses and wiring – any sign of anything damaged, burnt or overheated?

Next I would remove the battery and check the voltage with an inexpensive (Radio Shack) multimeter. It should be about 12 V. If not, put it on a slow charger. If you have question of battery condition or age, simply replace it with new.

Next, I would check and clean the battery connections, the ground connection to the chassis and the red wires to the B+ terminal. All the connections should be clean and tight.

This would be a good point to reinstall a known good and charged battery. Make sure it goes in with the (-) terminal to ground and the (+) terminal to the connection with all the wires. Be prepared to quickly disconnect it if anything overheats. Keep a fire extinguisher handy – as always.

Does the car work?

It will help with diagnosis if you post images.

Best,
Grady

[glenncof]

Black smoke makes no sense unless burning something such as wire insulation I would expect white smoke if it was water/acid based.

Based on what you've described I'll guess the battery was being overcharged. If this has been going on for awhile you may see corrosion on + battery terminal. Also check fluid level in battery, overcharge boils off fluid. Look at fluid with flashlight, dark color means likely bad cell.

If overcharged, battery may be shot but likely cause would be the alternator/regulator unless wiring has been modified.

Headlights on my '85 go out when starting, there is a cutout. This is not due to battery voltage.

[scottb]

I'm guessing that it's the alternator, which may have cooked the battery. Check the battery and the surrounding area carefully for signs of spillage. If any, flush liberally with baking soda and water.

Is it possible that without proper voltage to the DME box, the mixture went south, causing the black smoke? When my alternator died, I don't recall black smoke, but the car began running very badly and wouldn't re-start after I pulled over and turned the key off.

It might not be a bad idea to pull the alternator and have a local foreign alternator shop bench test it. It could be the alternator itself, the voltage regulator, or both. While you have the fan and housing out, this would be a good time to polish and powder coat both. Welcome to the world of Porsche slippery slopes!

Let us know what you find.

Good luck!

[Kaliv]

Thank you for the warm welcome. Not only am I new to the forums, but I'm also new to the car.

The battery looks clean, no corrosion or spillage.

There is a big stereo system where the back seats should be (I was planning on removing it and reinstalling the seats). Anyway, I noticed that there are two red wires going to the battery and was thinking perhaps one sent to the stereo and was not letting me start the car. So I unhooked the battery and started to removed both wires. I couldn't figure out which one went to what so I decided to hook them both back up to the battery.
Battery Picture
Thing next to Battery Picture

There is some kind of voltage reader in the car that read something like 11.45V when I turn the key. I'm not sure what it's there for and I haven't seen pictures of other cars with it.
Voltage Meter Picture

Well, after having the key turned for a while without the power going out, I thought maybe I might try starting it again, and to my surprise it did.

However, it kind of smells like it may be burning oil or something, I'm not real sure. I noticed that there were a few drops of oil under the car and it never use to leak oil.

So I popped the trunk and took a look at the engine again. I noticed a hose just hanging so I looked around to what it may go to and I think it went to some kind of air filter/mass flow sensor. Atleast the hose seemed to fit on the nozzle.

Does any of that point to the source of my problem, and do you think there was any damage done that I need to replace/fix? I'm sure finding oil under the car can't be good.

One other thing I might point out. Under the hood in the luggage compartment is some kind of container with pluid in it. It appears that pink stuff has leaked out a bit from somewhere. Anyone know what that is and if that might be a problem as well?
Container with Pink Stuff Picture

Thanks!

[scottb]

The container with pink fluid is your master brake cylinder resevoir.

You should be getting more than 11.45 volts. You likely have a bad battery, alternator, regulator, or a combination of these three.

The "thing next to the battery" is an aftermarket fusable link. Likely it's related to the stereo.

[autobonrun]

The buzzing followed by smoke sounds like something short circuited. Lift the cover off the fuse box and look at every wire on the top of the fuses and at the bottom of the fuses. See if any have burned insulation. Also look at the cover itself as you may see a white residue where it was singed from the coroilis and arcing. That would help you locate the source of the problem. Also check around the relays.

[HarryD]

The previous owner appears to have done some htings to re-wire your car to his needs. This will make on-line trouble shooting much harder since we will not be able to look at the factory wiring diagrams and our own cars to help you find defects.

To get us started, please post some pictures of your fues panel(s) in the trunk, a shot of your entire trunk with the carpets removed, a shot of your engine compartment and a close up to the electrical console on the drivers side of the engine compartment.

I think we need a baseline to help you trace out the problems.

[glenncof]

Originally posted by HarryD
The previous owner appears to have done some things to re-wire your car to his needs.

This is an UNDER-STATEMENT. It appears to have substantial rewiring to accommodate the stereo. Diagnosing modified cars is hard since usually nothing is documented.

If I was doing it I would attempt to create my own schematics and simplify things. Battery is bad, take to Sears for free testing. Once fixed, start engine, measure voltage at battery terminal, should be ~14.3V with full charge on bat. and not vary by engine speed. If it is ~16V regulator/alt or wiring is screwed.

Pulling 911 alternator is not the same as most cars/trucks as it's strapped to the top of engine with tight fix.

Longer-term: consider to rip it out and restore. (But I'm electrical engineer with automotive experience.) Unless you feel very qualified I would leave it to a pro. Battery wires carry currents similair to arc welder.

I would try to find 'the' dealer that installed it and consult with them. If you can't find 'the' dealer then go to a shop that installs the brand of equipment.

[Kaliv]

Originally posted by HarryD
To get us started, please post some pictures of your fues panel(s) in the trunk, a shot of your entire trunk with the carpets removed, a shot of your engine compartment and a close up to the electrical console on the drivers side of the engine compartment.

Well, I didn't see any residue from anything burning. I checked everywhere I could without removing parts.

I also went ahead and brought the battery to Sears. They tested it at 12.48V and sent me home. I think I figured out that if I unplug the battery for a while, plug it back in and try starting the car, the car will start. But letting it sit overnight with the battery plugged it gets me nowhere. I also noticed that after I plugged the battery in, sure enough, the voltage meter in the car read 12.48V, but then it was ticking down .01V about every second or two. Once I have the car started, the voltage meter reads around 14V.

Also, when I turn the key before actually starting it...it sounds like there is a fan that turns on behind me. I have no idea where the sound is coming from. Is that normal?

Here is a link to all the pictures I took of my car. Should be everything you requested and a bit more.

One last thing that really concerns me though. When you have no power to the car, how are you suppose to get out? Luckily when I lost power the first time, my window was down. Now it's up and it appears that something is wrong with the switch as I can't get the window down again. The doors locks automatically when I start the car. The lock itself goes into the door where you can't pull it up when it's in the down position. The switch on the door to unlock it doesn't seem to be operating either along with the window switch. And pulling on the inside handle when the door is locked doesn't seem to open it. And I only have one key so I can't have someone else unlock me from the outside. This really seems like a hazard, especially when I'm having issues with all the power going out on my car. If the power goes out and I'm inside...how do I get out? I want to bring it to a mechanic to get it looked at, but I kind of want to make sure I don't get stuck inside while I'm driving it over there.

Thanks!

[autobonrun]

First, a very nice looking Porsche.

It's hard to tell from photos, but it looks to me like the two red wires which are your + wires in the engine compartment fuse box have overheated. The insulation looks burned. Normally insulation will be burned near the terminal where they tend to get the hottest due to resistance at the connection point. The fact that that area is bright red and the area near the grommet is burned tells me that it may have very well shorted out there, burned the rubber grommet and caused the smoke. Lift the wire and see if that grommet is burned as well.

Also there appears to be some smoky material around the rubber grommet they go through. See if you can tell if either of these two wires is touching ground anywhere, especially in the area where it comes through the grommet.

Regardless, if that is damage to the wire insulation, it appears to be a short circuit. Check the fuse ratings of those two fuses versus what is supposed to be there as well.

Last two points as to your other questions. 1) Drive with the window open and 2) for God's sake man, get a second key made.

[Kaliv]

Originally posted by autobonrun
2) for God's sake man, get a second key made.

/bonk I think the newness of the vehicle is overwhelming me, I'm missing the obvious and easy solutions.

Anyway, I started reading my owner's manual from front to back and noticed that my car is missing some parts. On the door is suppose to be a tweeter type speaker where you are suppose to unscrew it to get to the manual override for the windows. Also on the door is suppose to be a knob to unlock the door locks. Neither are on my door if you look at this picture.

Have you ever seen doors like this? Did these come stock as an option or something? I wonder if the panels can be removed easy to gain access to the manual overrides and such.

[HarryD]

Kaliv,

Nice looking car.

Some good news it that your basic wiring appears to be stock. I would disconnect the power to your stereo system for right now to get the car working and then solve the stereo stuff later.

If you battery is being drawn down, you need to get that to stop. After you cut the power to the stereo see if that stops the drain. Let us know. If this does not stop the drain, you may need an ammeter to look for the source. What is your DIY skill level and experience?

Where are you located? Please add it to your signature since that way you may find have some Pelicanhead who is nearby to help you out.

[autobonrun]

Originally posted by Kaliv
/bonk I think the newness of the vehicle is overwhelming me, I'm missing the obvious and easy solutions.


Have you ever seen doors like this? Did these come stock as an option or something? I wonder if the panels can be removed easy to gain access to the manual overrides and such.

No, I haven't. It may be custom. My old 79 has the knob to manually unlock the doors. One of the Carrera guys can comment as to those interiors.

By the way, are those two wires actually burned as they appear?

[glenncof]

My 85 has a knob under the lock button on top. It has no power locks.

This wiring does NOT appear stock around the battery, fuse block looks stock. Battery is wrong place. It looks like car has no spare tire. I'll guess there are amplifiers under the black panel.

Fan noise from rear could be just blower for heat. Push levers between seats to the floor. Turn fan switch on same console to off. Shut off fan on dash.

I don't see burnt wires. What is green thing on top of battery terminal ? Disconnect switch ?

I can't make sense of everything you have indicated for symptoms. Dies while running with black smoke. Then battery ok and car runs charging about ~14V. What is the problem you are trying to solve ?

You have plenty of good suggestions here. Verify everything you do and One step at a time. Disconnect fuse for stereo to get this out of picture. Current draw on battery...I assume you need to have the ignition key ON to see voltmeter....if so, yea, you have all the engine electronics on.

Do you have power antenna ??? I have been told that 1984 was the last year for power antenna and they was changed to in windshield. My '85 has power ant. since it was very early, date code ia actually 12/83.

[Kaliv]

I'm currently near Dayton, OH. I say currently, because I'm looking to move in the next few months. I know of atleast one car dealership in the area that does work on Porsches.

The grommet in the engine compartment was a little burnt. Somehow I overlooked it. The wire insulation also has brown residue on it, but doesn't seem to show bare wire anywhere. Do you know what they go to? I'm thinking heater blowers.

My DIY level is pretty low concerning cars. I have a Grand Prix in which I've replaced fog lightbulbs, air filters, blower regulator, blower motor, and windshield wipers. I get brakes, belts and oil changes at Sears. I'm trying to do more, but I don't understand all the lingo sometimes. I have two Porsche books on order with pictures.

I attempted to disconnect one of the red wires from the battery, but afterwards wasn't sure if I would hurt anything by leaving the wrong wire connected. Would anything bad happen if I try to start the car with the wrong wire connected? I'm assuming the sire to the stereo fuse only supports the stereo, but I'm not 100% sure.

The green thing on the black is just what it looks like. It's a plastic green thing with a screw through it. I can unscrew the screw all the way if you want. Not sure what it would change. I just assumed it was an adapter to change the angle the black wire connects to the battery. It's like an "L".

I have an antenna on the passenger side, or should I say I have a nub. I've never seen it go up...it might though.

Everything that deals with the heater/air is off as far as I can tell. Perhaps because of the burnt wires in the engine, the blows are contantly on.

I was wondering if I was missing a spare tire. I couldn't figure out where I would put one if I had one. If the battery isn't where it's suppose to be, someone did a nice job making a hole for it. Looks like it's suppose to be that way.

Btw, the car just didn't die the first time. One puff of black smoke came out of the hood, so I stopped at the next exit. There I stalled it I guess and when I went to crank it over again, all the power went out.

I'll see if I can't find time to make it to a dealer today and get a second key made...just so I don't get stuck inside.

[scottb]

Kaliv: Please don't take this the wrong way, but based on what you're saying and how you've described your DIY skills, I think the best thing for you to do is check with your local Porsche Club of America chapter and get the name of a good independent mechanic. Most dealerships these days know very little about the older cars, and a good indie wrench will be able to give you some idea of what's going on.

My $.02.

[HarryD]

Kaliv,

I would second you contacting a local independent wrench to help you out. I know of at least one Pelican in your area (Cornpanzer). You might wan to PM him and see if he can get you pointed in the right direction.

[dfink]

Third on professional help but just a thought. I wonder if there are two batteries one for the stereo and one still hidden in the original spot. Doesn't make any sense that it recharges itself after sitting. Perhaps the second stereo battery recharges the main battery after sitting a while. If getting rid of the stereo I think I would tear all that out in the trunk and get back to basics. I didn't even think there was room to do that in front of the tank.

[zbph10]

This is what the door of an 87 should look like


Does the car have auto heat?


If so make sure the dial is at 0 or as mentioned before the red knobs all the way down or your fans could be running when you turn the key on.

Also from the pictures it looks like the smaller of the two red wired is the power feed to the stereo system, that would be the first thing to go while trying to figure out what's going on with rest of the car. Disconnecting the one or both of red wires won't hurt your car, just won't start or the stereo won't work.

Does the stero work right now? Really hard to troubleshoot something that is a one off like this is. Wish you were closer, I like a challenge.

Good luck and beautiful car BTW

Brian