Advice on a '76 911 for sale

[xiat]

Ive found a very nice '76 911 for sale that Im really tempted to go for. 122,000 original miles. No updates or rebuilds. Body is cherry as is paint. Price is $12K. Am I asking for trouble with an engine that has that many miles without work? Would it still be reliable?

Thanks, Roger

[threegunner]

Roger,
It's very difficult for us to assess a car like a 76 911 without pics, location, documentation, etc. But in my opinion the 76 911 has nothing going for it i.e. thermo-reactor car, 7 blade, 2.7 mag case, no external oil cooler, narrow body, not california smog exempt, etc. For $12K its very,very over priced. For the same price look for a 78-83 sc with the same specs you posted above. You'll be much happier.

[ossiblue]

Roger,

I originally responded when your post was on the "for sale" but could only do so in a PM--you may wish to check it.

In short, I would have to agree with threegunner's response, although I have a mid-year car. I chose it because I prefer the narrow body of the pre-SC cars and I was well aware of the reputation of these models. If you are set on a mid-year car, I suggest further shopping: 74's and non-California 75 cars didn't have thermal reactors and weren't subject to the intense heat on the cases which cause so many problems. They had the eleven blade fan for better cooling also. If you are looking for these years, have it thoroughly checked by a Porsche expert if no documented mods have been made to the engine (actually, that's advised for any car, but especially the middies)Any engine problems can be remedied with engine upgrades, but the car you describe has been untouched. To me, that's a big gamble for the money asked. Of course, don't forget California smog equipment (required, post 75) and possible rust.

[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally posted by threegunner
Roger,
It's very difficult for us to assess a car like a 76 911 without pics, location, documentation, etc. But in my opinion the 76 911 has nothing going for i.e. thermo-reactor car, 7 blade, 2.7 mag case, no external oil cooler, narrow body, not california smog exempt, etc. For $12K its very,very over priced. For the same price look for a 78-83 sc with the same specs you posted above. You'll be much happier.

Oh........well, let me retort,

I own a '76 911S and I think they have a LOT going for them.
I PROBABLY wouldn't sell it for $12K and I live in California....but I'd think about it. They are distinctly lighter than the SC's, are truer to the early car look than any of the other impact bumper era cars. They contain the 2.7 Mag case engine which is some 40 lbs lighter than the aluminum engined cars. So what if it has to meet CA smog, so do all SC's, Carrera's, 964's, etc.

Mine is un-rebuilt and has 127,000 miles. It runs strong. Ask a few of the guys I went on a recent Mullholland run with and ask them if I had any trouble keeping up! My car had the thermal reactors removed early in its life and the 5 blade fan replaced (there was never a 7 blade fan) with an 11 blade fan also. It has no external cooler. This is NOT as unusual as some (like threegunner above) would have you believe. A LOT of us PREFER the narrow body and as for the 2.7 mag case? Well, the Holy Grail '73 Carrera RS is a 2.7 Mag case so the fact that the case is made from magnesium - as are many early 911's - should not dampen your enthusiasm whatsoever. It is NOT the material that is in any way inherently bad. It was spigot size ALONG WITH the use of HEAT to address California smog requirements that led to early pulled studs in some cases. I had my car smogged only last week and it passed fine. Frankly, you don't have to worry all that much about smogging a car in California if you know where to look. Enough said about that.

Having said all that, no, I am NOT saying a stock California 2.7 is synonamous with a '73 RS. I know better than that. All I am saying is that many of these engines last to a long life as mine has. When properly rebuilt with due consideration for the proper machining operations (all of which are quite well known - the cars are over 30 years old now) I have had a number of knowledgeable mechanics tell me the 2.7 is a GREAT, screamin' azz engine.

Here's what mine looks like. Post a thread asking some of the MANY Mid9 guys to opine and you will get some balance in the responses instead of the oldass knee jerk "avoid the middle year cars" stuff you heard here. Best of luck in whatever you decide. My car:

[azasadny]

Here's my '74. At this point, the mid-years have probably all had their engines rebuilt, etc... I would pay $12,000 for one in very good condition... Mid years are great!

[azasadny]

Oops, wrong pic posted!

Here we go...

[IROC]

The "no updates or rebuilds" would concern me at 122k miles. These things usually succumbed to bad valve guides long before 122k miles. I love my '76, but I would check that engine over with a fine-toothed comb before I would consider paying $12k for it. Even with a freshly-rebuilt engine, I don't think the car would be worth much more than $10k unless it was *very* clean.

My two pfennigs.

[xiat]

Thank you all so much!! I jiust have a big love for the narrow body 911. Plus it IS lighter and very agile. They also have more chrome on them. I simply love the look. I wish one of you middie guys would be willing to let me email you when I find a car Im interested in and send you the pics and stats on it. I REALLY want a coupe but I also found a very nice '76 Targa. Very nice repaint in original cinammon red. 96,000 mi. Im trying to find out if it's ever had upgrades of any kind. Owner says she would take 15k. Still sounds high to me. If you guys hear of any mid '70's 911's in the pacific NW please let me know.

Thanks for your advice,
Roger
P.S. you can email me on the side if you want:
rogter2@verizon.net

[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally posted by IROC
........ These things usually succumbed to bad valve guides long before 122k miles. ....... I don't think the car would be worth much more than $10k unless it was *very* clean.

My two pfennigs.

I've never heard of a single Mid year car having valve guide issues. I am sure this HAS occurred, I'm just saying that the usual failure mode was pulled studs in no-external-oil-cooler Calfornia cars that ran the TR's along with the (stupid!) 5 blade fan.

We have also always heard that broken Dilavar studs affected the SC's, valve guides were the issue on 3.2's in Carreras and OBD II issues on 993's, and on and on. Each era seems to have had their own issues....which is why the knee jerk "don't buy mid year cars" advice always irks me. Not that the pulled studs issues isn't accurate. Its just that they ALL had issues and for some reason peole have stayed focused on the one era. Hell, the early SWB cars had to be lengthened and all years of the early cars can have serious to fatal rust issues.

As for the price to pay? Follow the tried-and-true, "buy the best one you can find" advice. Not necessarily the best you can afford. At $10,000 I'm not sure what you can expect if the engine truly has had a documented, well done rebuild. That rebuild would cost the majority of that $10K so the tub its in probably wouldn't be all that great. Paint, interior, rubber, Fuchs, tires, brakes, clutch, etc cost LOTS of money if they're not all in tip top shape along with that rebuilt engine. This is why I am saying that as the Early cars prices stay high the price of all 911's will gradually rise if they are in excellent condition. They are simply iconic for a lot of people and they are getting truly OLD. My '76 is now approaching 31 years old. The newest SC is almost 25 years old. Make 'em excellent and hold 'em, and they will rise in value. Drive 'em of course but keep them in excellent shape and you will get a lot (but not all) of your money out of them. Not many other cars you can say that about.

[xiat]

Good points Dan. Thanks for your input. So...if I found a '74 say, that had over 100,000 on it and had been maintained, has tensioner upgrades etc, but no rebuild...would that be a car that still has life in it's engine? Since it made to 100k? Or should I expect that it will need a rebuild soon?
Roger

[IROC]

Originally posted by Dan in Pasadena
I've never heard of a single Mid year car having valve guide issues. I am sure this HAS occurred, I'm just saying that the usual failure mode was pulled studs in no-external-oil-cooler Calfornia cars that ran the TR's along with the (stupid!) 5 blade fan.

This was very common "back in the day". When I bought my car in 1993 everyone still freaked out about making sure the valve guides had been replaced. This was the reason my old 2.7 was originally rebuilt in 1981. I'm pretty sure the Pete Zimmerman book discusses this, but I haven't read that book in years.

Anyway, the valve guides crapped out so quickly that almost all of those repairs have been done already as most of them never escaped the '70s...that's why the "no updates or rebuilds" caught my eye.

[Dan in Pasadena]

Roger,
The one thing I think all of us will agree with (despite opinions so far) is that a PPI by a truly experienced and honest Porsche mechainc is invaluable. But even if you do that and there is no rust, you have solid cylinder pressures, etc. There are NO guarantees when you buy a 33 year old car. There are only "best educated and informed" decisions.

You could get a solid PPI and still have to spend significant money on the car. If that were to happen it doesn't NECESSARILY mean you got screwed by the former owner or the mechaninc that did the PPI or that mid year cars are lousy. It means you lost the gamble and on a decades old car that simply CAN happen. If you are infatuated with the narrow bodied cars and (like me) don't havethe budget for Early cars prices these days, along with an aversion to dealing with rust (again, like me) then I advise t a k e y o u r t i m e. Don't get all aflame shopping or the likelihood you will screw yourself goes up fast.

There are lots of 911's out there. Lots of owners that think their's is "rare" or "special". I think shopping for 911's is a classic case of the "99 No's" theory. You're looking for one in a hundred, you may very well have to truly take the time to say NO 99 times before you get the right combo of model, condition, records, location, etc. If you're lucky, it will come after only 20 or 30 NO's! Best of luck. Post what you are considering. Dan

[Victor Askew]

Hello to all: I own a 75 911s and can I plan on holding on to it for a long time. That being said these cars can have their share of problems as far as pulled studs go as was the case with my car, and this was after a engine rebuild which was completed by the owner before I bought it. A 2.7 car with 122,000 miles with out a history of a teardown is a bit risky, you could be setting your self up for a pretty good size bill. Be sure to check for large oil leakage at the point of contact for the heads and the cam box. Also drive it and listen to the exhaust note, if you hear a poping noise, if the exh note sound off or it sounds as if you have a hole in the exh system that can not be found, this would indicate that exh gas is blowing by one or more cyclinder gaskets. Also you can see the bottom row of studs as they enter the casing on both sides of the engine, look to see if any part of the threaded section of these stud is showing, if they are this is a problem. Good luck and have fun.

[ossiblue]

Roger,

You've been getting great advice here, which is what you want. Each car is different and the history of each car is different, so the "99 no's" is a good mantra to have. The more you look, and ask, the more clearly you will recognize the combination of car, history, etc. that you want. As stated before, you are looking at a 30+ year old car. You will put money into it--sometime, and for some purpose. You're trying to minimize the amount and direct where you will spend it. If the car has been maintained well, upgraded (ie. carrerea tensioners, external cooler, eleven blade fan) and has not been rebuilt, your odds are better but they are still odds which need further reduction by expert PPI's. All of this, of course, affects price.

[deanp]

I agree that there is nothing wrong with a mid-years IF you do your homework and know what you are looking for. I picked this one up three years ago, older rebuild that still runs great. Converted to carbs, added the duck and did the carpet. Other than that, minor maint stuff. That being said, I didn't HAVE to change to carbs, or add the duck, so the big ticket items were by choice. This one was $7650 3 years ago.

[Victor Askew]

Very,very nice 911s.

[xiat]

Hey guys....I may have found the car of my dreams....we'll see.
I feel really good about this one. '77 coupe, rebuilt engine & tranny. New paint, upholstery. Fair market price. Very nice and knowledgeable current owner. In fact, he may be reading this post. I am soooo excited!! You guys were right...don't get all goo-goo-gaw-gaw over the first few cars. I've waited a long time to find this car and I really hope this works out. I can't express my thanks enough to everyone who has given me advice and comment. You guys are some of the best people there is. Stay tuned....I'll give you an update as I learn more.

Thank you!
Roger

[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally posted by xiat
Hey guys....I may have found the car of my dreams....we'll see.
I feel really good about this one. '77 coupe, rebuilt engine & tranny. New paint, upholstery....

Documented rebuild? Even if so, still need a PPI. Yes, you DO.

By the way, you SOUND all "goo goo gaw gaw" in your own words....chill. Get the PPI. Step back and evaluate. Best of luck.

[Cali 911]

I started out looking for an 1983 sc. I came across this 1976 with a 3.0. The rear flares are steel, front end is from an 84. All chrome trim painted black. Last owner had for 18 yrs. All records back to new, when it had the 2.7 and was green! Current miles 223,000 on frame & 100k on engine. Runs like new!

So a 1976 still can be ok!

[Paulporsche]

I've enjoyed this middie for 18 years!