Ceramic coatings and dry film lubricants. your experiences?

[jpnovak]

Last summer I posted this thread about thermal barrier coatings and dryfilm lubes.

piston top ceramic coatings

Time has passed and I have learned quite a bit about the coatings. I know that many race teams use these type coatings for high stress engines. They really shine if there is an internal failure to prevent excessive wear on components. I also know that reputable builders like EBS offer these services for 911s. The core longblock is on its way as I type and I am looking to start shopping. I have found several sources to have the coating done or possibly DIY if I have too many parts to send out.

Who has these coatings in a NA engine (forced induction applications, too)? I would like to hear about your experiences with the dryflim lubes on all bearing surfaces and thermal barrier coatings on the heads, pistons valves, etc.

What about using a Ti coating on the back sides of valves to prevent heat sink?

I plan to coat the intake ports, exhaust ports, valve heads, piston crowns with a thermal barrier coating.

I plan to coat the cam lobes, journals, rockers, main bearings, rod bearings, piston skirts, wrist pins with a dry-flim lube.

Thanks for your help.

[Mike Bonkalski]

Jamie,

Email Jake Raby at Air Cooled Technologies. He was able to provide me with a lot of good info. He has coated just about everything and is please with the results.

[jpnovak]

Thanks Mike. Forgot about that resource...

[jpnovak]

Someone has to have these in an engine. bump

[JeremyD]

The dry film coatings have been used successfully for years in high end racing sailboats. Not what you are looking for.... I know

[randywebb]

I have 3 coatings on my pistons - pretty cheap -- what you want is something no one here will know. Who has the equipment and ability to evaluate the benefits? GM, Ford, maybe Porsche, ASTM... none of whom post here....

[jpnovak]

Randy, I suspect you have the thermal barrier on the crowns, the dry film on the skirts and a oil shedding on the underside. I guess there is no way to tell how well they are working.

You are correct, most manufacturers have facilities for actual scientific measurements. I guess I am looking for more qualitative experience. I suppose I will have to do my own trials.

Jeremy, with all the rain we have had in TX, I would hope the 911 could swim. Maybe I need that for the floorboards of the targa.

[afterburn 549]

I have ceramic and mulidum on one of my truck diesels. Its the wave of the future as we head for the total ceramic engine

[randywebb]

yup on all 3 - but how are you going to do the trials? I doubt you could detect a difference on a dyno and you'd have to do at least 10 engines to have any prayer of statistical significance...

I'd just do whatever is not too expensive and seems to have good support...

[zotman72]

I had EBS coat my rod and main bearings three years ago when I did my S motor. A premier race mechanic at 3R (Steve Rowe), said at the time they were using it on their vintage Porsche race motors at a PCA tech session. He said they tear down several of their customers 2.0 motors every year and once they went to the coating on the bearings, there was no discernible wear on the surfaces. Which of course, is a good thing.

I had not tore down my S engine and its still runs strong. I would recommend it. YMMV.

[alfizzo]

since engine coating is the topic. i been testing coatings on the crankshaft and rods and camshaft. for over a year now and tens of thousands of dollars spent i have a coating that will be proven to reduce windage, oil temp and gain hp. the whole process is patent pending. when all of the final data is concluded. i will post real dyno results.

[juan ruiz]

We did it on our engine, pistons and rods bearings.........

Results; lower oil temp, zero wear on the ring lang, zero wear on the piston rings, zero wear on the rod bearings, I open the engine after 3,500 miles for inspection, the system works and works very good.

[Don Dosmann]

Hi Jamie,
There is a company here in nothern Indiana that does all the pistons for Hendrick Motor Sports engines. ceramic on the tops, dry film on the ring glands and sides. Had my 911 JE's done, pretty cheap too. Email me for info.
Don

[jpnovak]

Bill and Jaun, THanks for your feedback,

alfizzo, I understand the confidentiality. Can you speculate on the results of your data to say these coatings are worth the trouble, maybe without giving any details? I suspect a "yes" answer if you are going the process to protect IP.


Thanks Don, I know of many sources that will apply these coatings. I also know a few places that you can buy the supplies and DIY. Probably the most cost effective method is for me to coat everything.

[silverc4s]

Jamie,
I have found this to be the board with the MOST knowledgeable technos worldwide. Don't know if you have ever visited here..
http://forums.atlasf1.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=8

A truly amazing group, many actual F1 involved, etc.

[jpnovak]

Noah, I found the EBS was significantly more expensive than other sources. I could by enough material to coat the entire motor with thermal barriers and dry-film lubes for about $100. All parts need to be baked at 500F for one hour to cure. This is not a problem for me. Now where is my airbrush?

Bill, great site. I just had some fun with the search button. Interesting reading! Fantastic reference. Thanks.

[kepperly]

Pass Pass Pass on the smoke and mirrow dry film, it caused me to rebuild a copo427 motor that I was suckered into coating the bearings in. A mear 20 miles after start up I had metal flake oil.

pass pass pass
Keith Epperly 87 slant nose carrera cabriolet tubo look, 77 911 coupe w/ 44,000 miles for sale

[alfizzo]

keith,

being a electroplater iam reluctant to coat parts in my engine. parts that can be coated like bearings, pistons, pistons rings are provided coated by the manufacture like mahle grafal coated pistons or plasma moly coated rings. however iam testing a different coating that is similar to a proven coating that is widely used in the racing industry. my coating has better features and a broader application than the current coating. however due to IP concerns i do not want to divulge to much info. my coating has been proven to with stand hard street use and is rock solid. the last bit of info i need is proven dyno results. once that is completed then i will post web site.

thanks
franco

[JohnJL]

year`later hows it going?

[kepperly]

I still don't know how you can coat bearings then subject them to "over" their normal operating temp and have them survive even start up.

Keith Epperly
87 slant nose turbo look carrera cabriolet