Poll: Why spend 10K to put 3.6 in old 911? Buy a 993 instead?

[rdane]

The 993 is stunning!

I'm interested in Bill's response and the weight of each car as well.

I would think the biggest differences on the track for these two cars would be the more rigid chassis of the later 993 coupe, the wider 993 tires and a better aero package of the 993.

I don't see any advantage of an earlier T bar car if it isn't significantly lighter than a 993. I do see lots of disadvantages however at the same weight. And even more disadvantages to an early car with a 3.6 without the proper amount of chassis reinforcement.

[Bill Verburg]

it's true that the targas are flexi flyers, but i've driven enough coupes to judge the differences.

The thing that Porsche has continully improved w/ each generation that has improved handling is the camber patterns exhibited during suspension travel.

Each generation shows improved patterns particularly important in the back where the bulk of the weight is. Add to that improved torsional stiffness, the ability to have suspension that is at the same time stiff in the desired planes and compliant in other planes, reduced stiction in the suspension and general strength of the chassis hardpoints and you get an increasing ability to handle better and attain lower lap times.

Aero improvemants haven't hurt either.

[petevb]

I agree with most of what you've mentioned above, however...

The question in my (and I guess rdane's) mind is whether or not the weight advantage of the early 911 is enough to overcome the factors you've listed? I don't claim to know, however the argument I'd make would be:

Clearly Porsche engineers moved the game on over the years. Some of those improvements, however, can be retrofitted to the early cars, and others, while improvements on a street car, didn't necessarily help the car's track performance. The stiffness issue, for instance, can be overcome with correct chassis stiffening in an early car, and a 993 motored early car can come out at less than 2000 lbs, which will give it a significant power and tire to weight ratio advantage.

The result leaves around three seconds a lap left to be made up with better aero and suspension geometry. Seems tricky, depending on the track? I notice modified early 3.6L race cars tend to edge 3.6l 993s in the local lap records...

That said, I can't claim to have driven a 993 as modified as yours, and I know there is enough car and driver variation to make lap time comparisons tough.

The question would make an awfully good shootout...

[TonyG]

This should help with the rear suspension advantage, with respect to camber change, that the 993 enjoys over the earlier 911's (although I've never tried it ... yet :-)






TonyG

[rdane]

Jack Olsen and Tyson should be able to comment on what an older car, set up right, can do. Guys??

The Open Track Challenge would seem to be a good test of LWT High HP cars. And BBII isn't all that LWT at 2400# last I heard or a big HP 3.6, running a stock 964 engine I think. Seems pleanty fast enough though

This from a post here by Randy Blaylock with his narrow tired, 3.6 varioram in an early car.

Originally posted by Randy Blaylock
Here's the grid from today's Conference race at Pacific Raceways in Kent, WA. I managed to qualify pretty well, 9th place behind all GT1 cars. That's a Viper Competition Coupe just in front of me, and 45 cars total in the group.



Advanced one position after the aforementioned Competition Coupe spun off into the wall...



Finished 6th. Oh yeah, 225/50-15 tires work great, even with a 45/65 weight bias and a 275 rwhp 3.6 vario.

With all the new bits (from Wevo, TRG, Elephant Racing ect) for early T bar suspensions or coil over conversions the advantages of a 993 rear end transplant has been deminished. The same bits Pete noticed and complimented in my car's suspension.

[sl951]

Speaking about 3.6 transplant cars racing...

The best race story that involves a 3.6 transplant has got to be the 25 Hours of Thunderhill. In 3 consecutive years, Lost N' Space achieved a 1st place and two 2nd place overall finishes against a vast array of fast sh** and big money sponsers.... amazing!

And the car is a typical 911 3.6 transplant running 16 Fuchs!.. nothing too crazy exotic here (i.e. no-tube frame chassis etc).

That said though, this last year a well setup 996 Cup car crushed everyone....but still Lost N' Space came in 2nd overall

-------------------------------------------------
I'd say P-car racing follows the same evolutionary rule that everyone knows... the lastest version is the best.

Modifying an early car to the Nth degree will always be slower than the Nth degree modded later car.

One of the most impressive early car I know modded to it's max is a 3.8 TT (600-700 whp - aircooled maxed), 2000lbs. Thought that was the king. Then a quick trip to the POC guys in SoCal... and watched the modded 996 TT with probably close to 1000 WHP just ripped down the banks of California speedway.. given their Aero, suspension, tranny, better engine cooling. I can't see how an early car would keep up.

[Jack Olsen]

Thanks, Dane. BB2 is still going strong. Here's my first-ever poll (two GT 1 cars behind me, then Tyson, then some more GT1) at Thunderhill last month.

[Bill Verburg]

Here's another sample, 60 cars from this past weekend at WGI
3.6 t/p into an early 911 would be GT2, no weight limits allout race cars, not to many 3.6 t/ps to be seen here.
Blue Qualifyng, Watkins Glen 6/07
You guys are welcome to believe what ever you want, I'm done here

[petevb]

So you're done here, Bill (thanks for the good input), and Jack isn't going to touch the issue with a 50 foot pole! Well I guess the most important skill for a moderator is diplomacy

I'll leave it there as well, but I'd simply suggest that all 3.6 "t-bar" cars are not created equal, so generalizations are dangerous to make

[rdane]

It seems a good discussion on the merits of the lwt 3.6 tp cars and the performance value of the prepped later cars.

Not really knowing what I was getting into I pieced my older car together. Budget and time frame took more than I had expected to get the car where I wanted it.

On the other hand even without the specific built short gear box and carrying a bit more weight than I do now the car easily won it's class at the '05 PCA Bogus Basin Hill Climb. Besting everything there on street tires but a then new '05 Special Werks GT2. Loosing to the GT2 by less than 3 sec.

Along the way beating all the street 993s that showed up with R rubber by 5 to 10 seconds on a 2+ minute course.

Not saying my car or any early transplant car is going to be the best idea for every circumstance or every owner. I drove mine 700 very interesting miles to get to that climb. Then 500 freeway miles home again with no complaints at 30mph.

To get either style car to a some what equal level of performance I would think the money spent and the creature comforts are going to be very similar. The difference I see starting with a 993 is you'd be deeper into the car from the get go and when you start to strip it, as you would have to do to keep up, you'd be loosing resale value with every pound you delete.

As I mentioned previously I'd now think about a water cooled car if I were to do it all over again. Engine costs are less and cars generally will have less wear and tear on them and be at a similar price point as a used 993 from what I have seen. And as everyone has said each generation of the 911 has gotten better, if more complicated, even if they are now water cooled.

Bogus '05

[rdane]

Just curious and maybe Bill or someone else can fill me in.

From Bill's link the top 15 cars at Watkins Glen and time off the pole:

GTA-EX 00 '07 997
GTA-EX +3.038 '06 997
GTP3 +5.120 '73 911
GTA-EX +5.916 '06 997
GT3S +6.435 '72 911
GT3S +6.887 '86 951
GT2R +7.408 '91 911 C2
GT3S +8.064 '86 951
GT3S +8.317 '75 911 RSR
GT2R +8.607 '95 993 RSR
GT3R +9.607 '74 911 RSR
GT4R +10.097 '80 911
GT3R +10.258 '80 911
GTC3 +10.408 '04 GT3 CUP
GTC1 +10.587 '90 964 CUP

Am I reading this wrong or are there six pre 1980 cars in the top 15? Looks like the issue isn't what is the most economical but what is best suited for class. After looking at the rule book a full race 3.4L is a nice choice for an earlier car to be competitive.

Many, if not most of the 3.6 tp street cars here on Pelican (including BBII) are easily getting the power to weight ratios of the 964 and 993 CUP cars if not better.

[antares]

Interesting chats about pole positions & some great princess photos, yet this post is about the merits or folly of having done the 3.6 upgrade to an older 911. With that said, what problems with resale and investment return are you having if tring to sell?

If you have sold did you have to take a big hit?

If selling or sold then why are you selling? Are you looking to go 993 and stay true blue air cooled or are beging logical again and eyeing the 996 platform?

How about hearing more comparisons between the transplant and the stock 993's - great stories.

If you did do the upgrade tell us about the comparison differences between before and after.
What did you feel needed to be done to suspension etc. or brakes after the upgrade?

As for me I need therapy. Quick! Two cars in the stall. Man if I only could. If I could get into the conversion for $ 7,500 complete & doing my own work I would do it but I don't see how that's possible.

antares
fatnwide

[jevvy]

Some simple sums from my conversion might help (x2 for $)

£3000 - 993 engine, loom & ECU
£2250 - conversion parts inc Clutch and muffler
£500 - other bits and bobs needed to complete the conversion

£5750 - Sub total
£2700 - Deduct sale price of old engine, loom and ECU

£3050 - Grand total out of pocket cost for conversion including new RS flywheel and clutch and stainless muffler.

I say you can do a 3.6 for sensible money if you DIY.

[Jims5543]

I think I just scored the FTOD at the local PCA with my SC with stock suspension and brakes with the 3.6 swap. I am running Kumho MX tires whereas many of the other Porsches were on R Compound tires.

I was the only 3.6 swapped SC there and none of the newer cars there came close. Imagine if I do some suspension upgrades and put on some R compounds? Last time out was not far behind a GT3 with R compounds and a well regarded driver.

If you want the performance this is the way to go. I am convinced now. Its not easy to drive hard, as a matter of fact I was quite winded after a 53 second run but man it was fun fun fun and I felt I left a couple of second on the course due to the suspension limitations, I just could not get her to go where I wanted to sometimes. Videos soon if anyone wants to see.

[Jims5543]

Just uploaded this to you tube. I have to work this car a lot to get it to move fast, most of the problem is the suspension and tires. Maybe one day I'll upgrade it.


Click here to see Video

[antares]

I leave for a week on work and come back to my pole and it look's like it has stalled in it's tracks. OK, If anyone would like to comment on the questions at hand I would still like to know your opinions and experiences regarding the 3.6 upgrade and even the differences between the 964 vs the 993 varioram 3.6 upgrade as well.



antares
fatnwide

[rattlsnak]

its no different than buying a boat or an airplane..
decide your MISSION first, then buy the best model in that class.

of course everybody wants to have a track car, or track car feel, but how many times are you really going to go to the track? how many long distance trips are you going to take? do you need A/C, etc?

ive had a few of each, (993s and 3.6 hotrods) and they are both totally different. I wouldnt hesitate to take the 993 on a road trip, or even a short hop through the pouring rain. would I do that with the 3.6 hot rods,. nope. they didnt come out unless it was sunny, or i was going to the track. mainly because of defrost/defogging capabilities, comfort, noise, etc.

be honest with yourself, decide your true mission with the car, and then decide which way to go.

of course, you could also get a cheap 964 and backdate it to look like an early car and have that look with the modern comforts..

(which, after much turmoil in my head about deciding what to build next, is the way my next project will go )

[Jims5543]

I am not sure what you want to hear. I just told you that at a local AX with plenty of 964's and 996's and 997's I was the fast car there and I was on STREET tires.

If you want performance this is the way to go, if your more into ride quality and creature comforts then go with a newer one. Its really that simple. But, if you decide to Autocross be prepared to have a 27+ year old car clean your clock.

[rdane]

Jim pretty much sums it up for you.

Originally posted by Jim Cesiro
If you want performance this (3.6 transplant) is the way to go, if your more into ride quality and creature comforts then go with a newer one (964/993) . Its really that simple.

Many posts on both here.

You are trying to compare apples and oranges. I don't think the original question is all that logical. Take a ride in a lwt 3.6 transplant. Then take a ride in a 993. You'll waste less time.

[petevb]

If you want performance this (3.6 transplant) is the way to go, if your more into ride quality and creature comforts then go with a newer one (964/993) . Its really that simple.

I think that's about right, regardless of what some might say.

I just got back from an autocross where I took TTOD in my friend's '87 Carrera with a 3.6. He was 2nd, just behind, and then there was a gap to to 3rd, which was a highly modified 914.

Driver is a factor of course, but none of the newer machinery there (including two 997 GT3s, a 997 TT, a Boxster S spec car and a couple fast caymans) featured. This isn't a one-off occurrence; in the my '70 with a 3.6 that I just sold I was first or second at every event this season, and currently lead my class, overall and PAX performance adjusted times. The reason is pretty simple- the power to weight is just very hard to beat. The car I drove today was 2400 lbs, mine was 2200 lbs (still all steel body, etc); with 300 hp you're talking 997 TT power to weight ratio in a lighter, more nimble package. It's not rocket science. It's also not cheap to do right, but I've certainly never felt threatened by any 993 or 964, turbo or not, at the AX. There is a fast (550 + hp and lightened) 996 GT2 around here that when well driven can give me a run, and the pure race (trailered, slicks, etc) 914s are not slow, but the other machines are rarely close. Big track is a bit of a different story, of course, but the light early cars are still heavily favored in my experience until the 993s get REALLY light and have some serious power...