Pete

I treasure your opinion and have taken notes of everything you have written.

The only think I am skeptical about is the cheap 993/964 based 350+hp n/a motor.

Having just finished building one myself I can't see how you can build one below $25k.
Unless you come up with some sort of revolutionary design of the heads (see 9meister in the UK) that increases the torque produced dramatically you need to spin the motor to make HP.
Spinning it means investing in ligher components. And it is expensive.

We can take this off line if you want, but the parts list of my engine build goes well above half the 50k mark.... But this is another thread.

I agree 100% with your stance on the early vs 993 car battle.

Thanks Matteo- will send you PM...

-Pete

Here is a 1900 lb 993 monster:

https://marketplace.grassrootsmotorsports.com/index/listings/page589.htm

Obviously this was taken all the way down to a tube frame so I am not sure it bears much in common with the car is started life as, but the same can be said of many of the early cars. Check out the price, tough to beat!

I simply believe that anything you can do to an early car you can do to a late car, and in my opinion, it can be more cost effectively. You already have the engine. Already have the brakes. Already have the proper suspension platform. Already have the flares to accept more rubber. G-50 tranny. etc. Sure you can add a cage to stiffen an early chasis, but add a cage to a 993 and again you reach a new level.

Things like ABS, airbags, power steering, etc. can all be removed if you don't like them. In a street car they are worth their weight while on a track car the airbag goes and ABS and power steering are personal choices. (ABS may not be as fun to drive but most will agree it makes you faser on the track. With a 993, the ABS is free!)

Keep in mind, I have a 993 transplant myself. I love my car and will never part with it, but I still recognize the advantages of the later platform. In my last race I switched tires from Michelin Sport Cups to BF Goodrich R1, same moderately sized 265/35, and nearly rubbed a hole in my oil line. Times like that do make you long for the (free)factory standard wheel clearance on a 993.

Jake tube frame is cheating... what's left of the original chassis?

What I really envy to the 993 is the aerodynamics. You can go silly wide with a 911 (RSRs with 11" flare at the front and 13-14" at the back are still the widest thing to ever come out of Zuffenhausen) but they are like a brick.

Yes a 993 can go down to 2,200 and a G50 6 speed can fit in a 74 :D but the cars in questions would be so far from what they originally were that it makes little sense to still call them 993 or 911....

Well, sooner or later you reach the point of an absolute truth: with enough money and time, anything can be made fast. I think the question of this thread is not the ultimate development of each platform (which is basically the same, with limitless time and money -- although there won't be much 911 or 993 left in the mix at that point), but what gets the best bang for the buck for either Street or DE/Club Racing use.

Well I declare this to be official. Unless one can substain the indulgence of investing in an old platform such as the 911 the 993 platform is looking pretty good. It appears one has to modify the 911 to a point where you might as well have a 993 because that is where one is headed with the modifications necessary for the 911 to be cut and buff compared with the 993.

On the other hand, if you are just going to plug n play a 3.6 into your already over invested SC or Carrera and no other modifications & $$$ spent and you can buy the engine on the cheap then it may be prudent for a little while longer. You can always say you have a "faster" old 911 but not necessarily a "quicker" 911 with the transplant.
You won't have the utility nor versatility when compared to that of the 993 platform however. Most power to weight comparisons made on this post were with track comparisons of strip out cars not the ones you would want to live in and drive around everyday.

Prices for the necessary transplant components market are currently too high when compared to the purchasing power of what's available in the 993 camp. A market that will soon find less willing participants except for the fringe crowd; I believe the 993 ownership count will now grow logrithmically due to 993 ownership accessiblity and overall utility for the larger segment of the used porsche market.

Please Note: "Of course this has only been my official opinion and conclusions. Had this been an actual opinion and conclusion you would have been given exact instructions as to what to do and think!"

antares
fatnwide

I don't think so. The virtues that make the pre 1990 911's a favorite among enthusiasts are just not there in the 993: simplicity, beauty, ease of maintenance, etc.

There will be those to disagree with every last point, but I don't see it happening. 993's are just not as user-friendly as the earlier cars, and for alot of us (not necessarily the fringe crowd), tinkering is what it's all about,

ianc

You are welcome to that opinion, but I'll say it's very misguided.

My friends just got back from PCA nationals. With an '87 engine swap car they placed 9th out of over 300 cars. There was a GT2 that barely beat them, but they were a few seconds clear of GT3s, let alone 993s. It was likely the fastest non-trailered car there, and this was all despite a shifting issue that just showed up. The car has a radio, power windows, sunroof, full interior, sound deadening, etc- full daily driver spec except that the suspension is a tad stiff. It was very cost effective to build/ buy. I didn't go, but in my old engine swap car I've beaten the overall winner at a number of events recently, and that's with a street car vs a full race car...

Engine swap cars, done right, are insanely cost effective speed. You're local- if you get the 993 bring it out, modified any way you'd like, to one of the autocrosses. I'd have to spot you 2-3 seconds to even make it interesting. Due to this reality the engine swap cars will maintain their popularity with the crowd that will trade refinement for raw speed, as well as those that prefer the classic early cars.

Unsubscribing ...

http://funnypics.free.fr/explorer/pu...read-sucks.gif

"This thread Sucks !" he said with a cruel intensity and his hands at his hips; then raising up his little finger to the corner of his mouth just for special effect with a pout and a frown thrown in just for extra measure - as he so often did ... "Would that be n/a or turbo"? replied the post master ..."and what have "you" been drivin lately" ? ... said the cute petite brunette in the corner of the garage ...

Ok, Ok, enough fun - This has been a great thread and without alot of that lip smakin - back slappin spin that's so abundant on other threads with very little copy cat rap tap to boot. People are saying what they passionately feel on a base topic that runs to the core of our hobby. Now I don't want to have this post turn into a scratching post. One may be however, a devil's advocate to help spur on a more spirited personal rap about the virtues or dread of over investing or not investing into our 911 addictions.

With that said does anyone else have an opinion or statement that would benefit all ... I would love to hear more .. good, bad or otherwise.

antares
fatnwide

Nicely put, antares

What I wonder is that 10 years from now will the 993 be the light weight of choice?

The major reason you don't see them now is not because you can't do it (there is 2300 lb. on 993 advertised in Pano right not) but because they are newer and people are not ready to chop them up yet. In 10 years the 993s will have reached the same maturity as the pre-964 cars. It takes a brave sole to modify a low mileage car. What will happen when the 993s have weathered a bit?

They will never be as popular as the early body conversions simply because of production numbers (I am lumping all pre-964 cars together as a comparison) but I think they will start showing up.

Biggest question - what kind of engine can you stuff back there? Can a water cooled engine be made to fit or are you limited to superchargers and similar mods for hp?

Cost of maintenance long term will eat up the same cash you spent on the transplant

I look at the 993 and see the same dash as the 911 with the overall body about the same size. You have the wide tires, big hip fenders and those wrap around bumbers. What's not to like here?
You have the big brakes too. Start takin parts off that dont let you go fast and things will light'n up for you. True maybe not the shell like strip down creature you may get after you dissect a 911 but you can get a lighter 993. Maybe mods will come around on the multi-link rear to minimize the boat like characteristics that have been noted on this post. IF it was'nt for the unibody thing we could just put a 911 body on a 993 subframe like those guys do with 4x4 conversions.

antares
fatnwide

Being the owner of a 964, I find myself parked between the two camps here. I think a 964 is more like a 993 than a torsion-bar car, but I guess it still had the early-car appearance which I suppose make it a bridge between the two era's.

My car is a bit unusual since it started life as a C4 but I removed the AWD (installed C2 transmission) which makes it behave a bit more like the earlier cars.

The next chapter was to convert the engine to twin-turbos. A lot of my equipment came from a factory 993TT and the rest was fabricated. The turbos are what's used on a 996 GT2. I rebuilt the engine, mostly for the purpose of changing cams, improving the cylinder head to barrel joint, and lowering the compression ratio. The control system and ECU is still 964 but with a MAF conversion, so it's a hybrid in every sense. I'm still breaking in the engine but at the moment it's 450hp at the wheels at a modest 9psi boost pressure. My goal is to break the 500 mark (at the wheels) by the time I tune up to 13-14psi.

Anyway, my intention wasn't to hijack this thread and start a turbo discussion. My longer term goals include taking weight out of the car so that it it has more of an early-car personality.

I was hoping that readers that have "been there" could give a hit list of the best places to take weight out. I'd like to keep the carpets, center console, sunroof, and power windows. Air conditioning is already removed. Is there a lot of removable weight in the factory bumpers?

Thanks
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1185655746.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1185656332.jpg

Amen to that brother! :)

good god...we have a place in Brevard but have never taken either of my porsches there...you must SCREAM in that thing on the winding mtn roads...beautiful car...mind telling us how much the engine work cost? I can dream, right? Any more pics?

Rob

Rob,
Thanks. I invested (using that word very loosely) about 12k in parts to do the engine rebuild and twin turbo conversion. I did all the labor myself, so that's just the material cost. I kept track of my hours and it took me around 225 hours to do the whole project including AWD-->RWD conversion, the engine build, and the new decklid tail to accomodate the intercooler. That doesn't include tuning time which has probably been another 10-20 hours on top of that. Some of the most expensive elements were the used factory parts that I had to track down and then buy. Included are 965 pistons and cylinders, 993TT exhaust headers (modified to fit), a 993TT intercooler, 993TT MAFs, and 993TT throttle body/center plenum. All the rest of the cost was in the rebuild supplies and turbo-associated plumbing. The only things I had to outsource were the regrind of my cams, a valve job, and fly-cutting my cylinder heads.
-Brock

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1185680264.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1185680288.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1185680301.jpg