here is the clean tranny

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1183696360.jpg

Looking great! I disagree with the naysayers, you may not have replaced every single little thing but you will have an engine that will last you for as long as you own that vehicle. I'm sure the bottom end was tight enough if you didn't touch it. Good job, you will really enjoy your 911 now.

Thanks, that is the plan! I was hoping that this thread would inspire more people that are in the situation I was in.

I will say it now just so it was said...

Don't forget to put the ring gear on the flywheel.

The new rings need to "get acquainted" with the cylinders. Too much lube and they might not. Honing is done primarily for this purpose. If the rings don't seat properly, they will pass oil which the combustion chamber will burn. If they do seat, they will do so in the first ten minutes. Perhaps in the first ten seconds. Some builders like to install dry. The danger of that is a broken ring. When I freshened my engine, I reused the pistons and cylinders which were Alusil. Bruce Anderson specifically told me not to be nice to the rings. Start it up and drive it hard. Compression helps press the rings out against the cylinders, by virtue of the rings shapes. They are beveled, for the purpose of using compression to press them outward. Clean the piss out of the cylinders. Hone lightly. Very thin film of oil during assembly. There are differing opinions here, and this is mine.

This is all really good advice. I turned my rocker shafts 90 degrees, not knowing if having the wear pattern turned 180 degrees might still cause trouble.

You are an inspiration. We virtually never see a project this disciplined, which is why we didn't expect you would be successful.

Thanks. To be honest, if we weren't up against such a tight deadline we'd be moving a bit slower. But since we don't have the luxury of time we are working 5 or more hours a day on it - after working our jobs during the day and while making sure Donnie is on track with his packing and loading. We spent our fourth of july turning wrenches while everyone else was BBQing. But I don't regret one second of it - Donnie might though, hahaha.

But please trust me when I say that just because we are doing this in a compressed timeframe doesn't mean there is any lack of planning or care.

disfin, can you post a writeup when all is done and finished? I'm interested in what parts were replaced, and those parts that were re-used, what was done to recondition them? On inspection, what did you see and were risks taken?

I second the motion. A detailed write up would be very valuable.

man you guys are tough - I am surprised he found the time to snap any pictures and post them given his tight schedule. When I am knee-deep into a project I ususally forget to do so. On top of that it is a royal PITA to take off your gloves every time so that the camera doesn't get as dirty as my hands. It interupts the flow......

engine is fully assembled minus the tranny. too tired to deal with pictures, so they'll have to wait.

Tonight was finish cam timing, install remaining rockers, chain box covers, tin, exhaust, alternator, clutch, intakes, plugs, wires, and all the little things that go along with it.

Just think, after we get done with the car tomorrow we get to load a 24 foot trailer with furniture. SWEET!

get out of bed and get over here lazy a$$!

Well???? We are waiting!

Well, the engine and tranny were reinstalled yesterday. It fired up on the first try, but proceeded to run rough. Rough enough that we decided to shut it down to avoid damage and evaluate before running further. Unfortunately that was at 8pm and donnie was due up in NC by the early morning so we were unable to diagnose any further. It was a very long hard day (12 hours of loading a trailer and working on the car in the FL heat) and was a major disappointment as we were certain we had dotted all our I's and crossed our t's throughout the whole process, but especially the reinstall.

The good news (for me and the car) is that donnie's buyers were unable to get their loan paperwork back in time to make closing so we have another week with access to his garage so we didn't have to tow the car home. He'll be back in FL sometime next week and we'll be scrambling to diagnose. I really don't want to put it on a trailer!!

Seems that its running rich, it doesn't hold idle very long (idling high and hunting for idle), and doens't gain power hesitatating to go above 3k rpm. There is a laundry list of items that could be the culprit, intake leak, speed sensor, vacuum leak, ground wires, and I'm sure several more. Since the car is motronic we are ititially ruling out ignition timing. We'll focus our efforts on items that can be checked without removing the engine again. We put in new intake gaskets, and double checked the intake nuts, so a leak in there is unlikely. The ground wires were double checked and cleaned. The speed sensor worked just fine before the engine removal so it is unlikely to have failed. There was one tiny little vacuum hose that was loose in the engine compartment when I bought the car, but since it ran fine I never thought much about it, just figured it was an emissions control or something. Anyway, I didn't put it back in cause I don't know where it goes.

So after two exhausting weeks I failed to meet my deadline of having the engine complete and running properly. I love a challenge and I especially love being able to do something I'm told is impossible, so typing this post has been tough. My only consolation was being able to sleep in today. I hadn't slept past noon since college. I really am tired. I'm sure donnie is even more so after towing a trailer up to NC last night.

John Meyers

Don't worry, if the hard parts are good then the rest is easy. Sounds like cam timing possibility to me, but I could be wrong.

+1 on cam timing. I had one side 180* out but caught it when the intakes for 1 and 5 were opening at the same time.

It seemed to get worse as it warmed up, I double checked the cam timing, twice. Easy enough to pull the intake covers and look. I will be working on a list of things to check:

So far:
CHT sensor
oxygen sensor
idle sensor
speed sensor
cam timing via observation through upper valve covers

It sucks to not meet a deadline; although we had contingent plans, one never likes to have to use them. I apparently do not have enough experience with DME to quickly diagnose like CIS. Sorry we missed it this time, we'll get it this weekend. The good thing is I know all the good places to stop on 95 now!

Agreed, it did seem to get worse as it warmed up. Glad to see you made it up there alive.

John,

Wish you correct the issue very soon and enjoy the car again.

Also, did you get a conclusion of what caused the high oil consumption? Is it the valve guide, valve seal, or piston ring?
I'm interested to learn about that, thanks!

Darn. I was one of the few that thought you were going to pull this off.

Not wanting to go over 3K, that seems pretty severe. Maybe make triply sure the cams are in right. My friend many years ago had his S engine rebuilt by a very old time, respected engine builder, but the car ran horribly. It turned out the builder had accidentally put the right hand cam on the left side, and vice versa!

Surprisingly, the car still ran, just not very well.

I'm sure you'll get to the bottom of it fairly quickly. Good luck!

Guides were defintely bad, as would be expected. I suspect the guides were a little more than half the problem and the rest was the rings. Visually, the rings were questionable. None were broken but cyl 3's oil ring looked worn which would explain the >5% leakdown on that cyl.

Thank you, John.

If you don't mind, how did your engine run before the top end job?
Mine consumes about the same amount of oil as did yours but the engine is so powerful that I can hardly imagine there is any serious wear in the guides and rings.
And I've driven high-performance cars before.

Worn guides won't really effect performance, but will increase oil consumption. Worn rings can do both as they allow air to escape the combustion chamber and oil to enter the chamber.

In my case the car felt strong and consistent but I anticipate a mild performance increase considering the buildup in the exhaust ports restricting airflow and the lower than desireable compression in #3.

Got it. Worn guides would not decrease performance.

Guess I can probably wait till I have the resources to do the top end job as I only drive my Targa once or twice per week for less than 80 miles.

Thanks again and good luck!

John & Donnie,

You guys should be proud. It was quite an undertaking and in my mind you pulled it off.

I'm sure the issue will be minor and easily fixed.

You get my applause. http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat6.gif

Have someone drive behind you and watch for blue-ish smoke when you decelerate or accellerate. If it smokes when you accellerate it is coming past the rings, but if it smokes when you decelerate its coming past the valve guides. Of course when mine was warmed up there was never any significant oil burn, so this test didn't provide much guidance. It just blew a cloud at startup and then a little as it warmed up. It was hard to believe it burned as much as it did because I really didn't notice it all that much until it was time to add another quart.


Glenn,

Thanks for the kind words. Donnie and I think we know what the problem is so the car will be going back under the knife on Friday and Saturday. Anyone care to join the fun?! Oh and while we have the engine out, i'll be replacing one of the gaskets i just replaced because the back of the engine has developed a new leak that it never had before. Thats what I get for replacing perfectly good gaskets. I just need to figure out which one it is.

John

I'll be heading out on a much needed vacation on Friday so, I'll have to pass on the invite.

I am curious about what you suspect the problem to be since you plan on dropping the engine again. Something in the assembly of the heads/cams or just a hard to reach piece? Care to share?

Cam timing. I set it 180 out of phase, and checked it by verifying that "930" was up, on BOTH cams. Right cam should be down.

Man, that bites!

I did something similar on a bug engine rebuild once. Bolted the cam gear on the shaft 33 degrees off. I couldn't get it to start. Double checked everything I could think of and drained the battery trying to start it.

Convinced that there was nothing wrong I rolled it down the drive way and tried to jump start it, pushed it back up and tried again and again and again....:mad:

I finally had it towed to a shop and after about three hours of work they told me they thought it was the cam. This was, I think, my third engine rebuild and I couldn't believe I had done that. :rolleyes:

I did that too - Good for you for getting as much done in the time frame you had - impressive.

When one cam is 180 deg off, would that not show up with some valves touching the pistons while doing the timing before starting up?
Is there no concern that some valves may be bend since the engine actually run for a while with the wrong timing?
Realizing how important the cam timing is, I check 3 times around with minor adjustments.
Also, remembering the bad experience with new chains on old I-shaft chain sprockets, I again installed new sprockets for the ss 3.2.
I hope you re-used the old chains and not feed new chains onto old sprockets to find all the teeth 20k later on the bottom of your case.
Still opposed to rush-jobs.

No contact was made either turning it over by hand before re-assembly or while running.

I wondered the same. We turned the engine by hand after installing the heads and there was no contact. Also, when it was running there was nothing audible.

??? i don't follow you completely. the 930 mark is up on both cams at #1 TDC. not one up and one down.

Then I read the bentley wrong; i'll re-read today sometime.
JW-
What intakes should be open at the same time? I can verify Friday by a visual.

TDC #1, adjust #1 intake to .004, set up dial gauge on #1 intake and zero the gauge, turn clockwise 360° to get your cam timing reading on the left cam. at this position, #4 intake will be adjusted to .004 and repeat the procedure for the right cam.
so with #1 intake at it's starting position, #4 intake would be open and both 930 marks are up. after a 360° rotation. #4 intake is closed, and #1 intake is open and both 930 marks are on the bottom.

Nothing would touch, the piston to valve relationship is the same it is just off by a stroke. The intake would be opening on the exhaust stroke and the exhaust would be opening on the intake.

I had mine the same way but as I mentioned I noticed the intake for cylinder 1 was opening at the same time the intake for number 5 was opening and made me go "Huh" :confused: . I thought about it for a bit then figured out I was 180 off so. For those trying to do math. 180* off on the cam is 360* off on the crank. So take out pin turn crank 360* put pin back in and now getting close.
Not quite that simple but the general idea.

[edits for spelling]

Oh what fun I have to look forward to! I'll be doing my cams later this year.

I just stumbled upon this and must subscribe. My own SC rebuild was done in three wks. I was adjusting the valves about two nights before I was to go to China for three weeks, when out came two head studs. The following night we pulled the engine in my one car garage, put it on a stand and left the car under a cover in the driveway. I left Charlie a credit card and a garage door opener. While in China I was hitting Internet cafes to check my email and see photos of the progress. When I got home, Charlie was timing the cams. We slapped the engine in a few days later and all worked perfectly. Very lucky, cheap and fast. Two weeks would be very tough though.