Engine Rebuild: Choices, choices, choices...

[evopanop]

Hey, everyone. I've got a '80+ 3.0L motor in my '77 911S. The motor currently has no compression in one cylinder, and low compression in another cylinder; or so I'm told by the mechanic / dealer that I purchased the vehicle from. The physical condition / exterior condition of the motor and general engine bay is pretty poor. Here is a picture of the engine bay:


(Actually, it's kind of hard to see how bad it looks in this picture. It looks pretty ratty, though.)

To finally get on to my question, though, I'm wondering how exactly I should handle the rebuild of this motor; and, what everyone's thoughts and opinions are on the matter.

The cheapest would, of course, be for me to buy a rebuild kit and attempt to rebuild it myself. And, of course, the most expensive way being to send the motor to a place like Motor Meister (which is located fairly close to me, BTW) and have them rebuild it. Essentially, I'm trying to figure out what is going to give me the best bang for the buck. I'd really like to do some performance modifications to the engine, but of course it's all going to depend on how much everything is going to cost me.

Throughout the process of rebuilding the motor I would really like to make the motor easier to work on and more reliable, if my pocketbook allows, lol. (ie. EFI conversion, electronic ignition, etc.)

Thanks in advance, everyone. And sorry for such a long post.

[turbobrat930]

Please do a search on Motor Meister..... PLEASE!!!!!

do tons of reading... DON'T DO ANYTHING TILL YOU READ!!!!!!!!

[evopanop]

Originally posted by turbobrat930
Please do a search on Motor Meister..... PLEASE!!!!!

do tons of reading... DON'T DO ANYTHING TILL YOU READ!!!!!!!!

I've looked at Motor Meister, including many, many others, and I'm just looking for some helpful guidance to narrow down the choices. The smartest way to spend my money.

[turbobrat930]

I just rebulit my 3.3L and with the combo of bigger P&C's and stroking the crank...I am now at 3.6L

there are several good companies out there... that you can buy parts form to DIY, or they can do everything for you.

I used JB Racing at http://www.jbracing.com/index.php

they make their own cylinders, and are very, very good quality.. LN engineering make the nickies cylinders, and are also very good quality. they can be found at: http://www.lnengineering.com/index.html

but before you do anything.... DO A SEARCH.....

[onlycafe]

".... the most expensive way being to send the motor to a place like Motor Meister (which is located fairly close to me, BTW) and have them rebuild it. Essentially, I'm trying to figure out what is going to give me the best bang for the buck. "

[/B][/QUOTE]

instead of sending it to motor meister, why not shoot yourself right now. at least if you shoot yourself you will not live to regret it. motor meister on the other hand, is the gift that keeps on giving. not unlike herpes.
seriously, before you send it to roy, do some reading up on them.
congratulations on your new ride. best of luck with it.

[turbobrat930]

Originally posted by evopanop
I've looked at Motor Meister, including many, many others, and I'm just looking for some helpful guidance to narrow down the choices. The smartest way to spend my money.

if you have looked at MM, and you are still considering them....then you have not read enough.......

[evopanop]

As I read more and more of the posts on here regarding Motor Meister it looks as if I should not be doing business with them. Supertec Performance does seem to get some pretty good reviews, though. So - I'm still basically back to where I started. Have Supertec rebuild it, or attempt to do it myself. I'm really just looking for the best bang for the buck. The car is going to be primarily a weekend car, and possibly a track car every once in a while.

Thanks again for all of the informative posts so far, everyone.

[Carrera3.5L]

Your choices will be somewhat limited since you appear to reside in California and thus subject to emissions constraints. You can build (or have built) a nice motor that will pass the rolling dyno tests, but may not pass the visual portion of the inspection or vice versa. Some people seem to have sources to minimize this issue, others don't.

With that in mind, increasing the bore from 95mm to 98mm and increasing the compression within reason along with a mild camshaft change and exhaust mods (that can be easily returned to stock for smog tests) may be the safest and best bet. These type of conversions have been around for nearly 30 years so none of it is ground-breaking. I gave an example of a 3.0L to 3.2L conversion but your engine case could be the basis for displacement up to 3.7L if you have the desire and funding to do so.

If you could give an idea as to what your engine budget is more detailed (and thus accurate) information could be given. There are a variety of displacement increase options (bore, stroke, bore & stroke) and induction/exhaust options that are available for these motors. This doesn't even take into account a 3.6L transplant or forced induction of some kind.

Ralph

[evopanop]

Originally posted by Carrera3.5L
Your choices will be somewhat limited since you appear to reside in California and thus subject to emissions constraints. You can build (or have built) a nice motor that will pass the rolling dyno tests, but may not pass the visual portion of the inspection or vice versa. Some people seem to have sources to minimize this issue, others don't.

With that in mind, increasing the bore from 95mm to 98mm and increasing the compression within reason along with a mild camshaft change and exhaust mods (that can be easily returned to stock for smog tests) may be the safest and best bet. These type of conversions have been around for nearly 30 years so none of it is ground-breaking. I gave an example of a 3.0L to 3.2L conversion but your engine case could be the basis for displacement up to 3.7L if you have the desire and funding to do so.

If you could give an idea as to what your engine budget is more detailed (and thus accurate) information could be given. There are a variety of displacement increase options (bore, stroke, bore & stroke) and induction/exhaust options that are available for these motors. This doesn't even take into account a 3.6L transplant or forced induction of some kind.

Ralph

Thanks for the great reply, Ralph. I'm hoping to DIY the rebuild for $5k. This is assuming that there is no major damage discovered when I tear down the engine.

[turbobrat930]

Ouch...only 5 grand???? I hope ALL of your parts are in perfect condition....The complete engine gasket kit with timing chains, sealant, bearings, etc will cost you just under a grand. That price also includes new ARP headstuds... So, thats a very reasonable price... contact EBS racing for all of those parts...

http://www.ebsracing.com/

As for your cylinders, if yours are in good shape, they might just need a hone... if they are out of round, they may need to be rebuilt. ( I have no idea how much per cyl that would be). If you are looking to buy new P&C's...to either replace the ones you have, or to increase the bore size.... look at spending around $4 grand for both P&C's.......

If you are going to reuse your rods, pistons, etc, then you need to factor in the cost of the machine shop.. recondition rods... measure line bore, measure for out of round cyl's, ring lands in the pistons, valve stem wear, etc....

then lets get into the heads... a good rebuild job on the heads...assuming they do all the work...and no porting or polishing, will run atleast 1 grand...easy...

I think to do a rebuild the right way.... it will cost you more than 5 grand. There might be ways of cutting the costs, but why would you cut corners, only to have problems arise a year or so later????

[HarryD]

A shop will charge around $4-5k for a top end only.

To get an idea of the parts costs, look here: http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/wizards/parts_wizard.cgi?wizard_root=911_engine_rebuild.

Add machine shop costs and now you have rough budget.

[mb911]

if you are looking for a top notch rebuild then supertec is your answer. If you are looking at rebuilding your engine soon after its rebuild then take it to motor meister which it seems you already know. If doing it yourself some very nice P&C's can be purchased from supertec as well as our host,EBS etc but this drives your expense way up.. I am guess your cylinders will not be usable though so look at the QSC cylinders with JE pistons this will be the cheapest option and they work very very well. supertec is the only one that has those though

[KFC911]

Originally posted by evopanop
[B]. And, of course, the most expensive way being to send the motor to a place like Motor Meister (which is located fairly close to me, BTW) and have them rebuild it....]

Yes, but you have NO idea how expensive that could turn out to be

[Rich76_911s]

I would HIGHLY suggest getting a copy of the book, "How to Rebuild and Modify 911 Engines," by Wayne Dempsey.

http://www.101projects.com/911-Rebuild/index.htm

The book will save you well more than the $25 it costs. You can get familiar with the process, and decide if you want to build it yourself or if you want to have it done by a professional shop.

Even if you rebuild it yourself at the very least you will have to have a machine shop refresh your cylinder heads, the big and little end of the rods, fix the cams if there is any pitting, etc.

Get the book then start deciding which direction you would like to go. One thing I can certainly tell you with Porsche's. Is that an educated decision is A LOT cheaper than an uneducated decision. I have made enough of the latter to know how much an uneductated decision can hurt.

Rich

[wilke3169]

I rebuilt mine two years ago without prior Porsche experience. I used EBS and Camgrinder for machining. I replaced cylinders with resurfaced, pistons with JEs and reground my cams to 964. Also added SSIs and Monty Muffler which I am not sure is an option for you with your emissions controls. Car now has over 15,000 on the engine and runs like a champ.
All of this was made possible using Wayne's rebuild book and the many experts on this board. John Walker heads the list but, everyone was ready to help when I hit even minimal stumbling blocks. To say that I became acquainted with my car is the understatement of the year.
Just food for thought but with the right books and the support of this board the mystery goes away.

Good luck,

[Superman]

Rebuild it yourself. That is your only hope of coming anywhere near your budget figure.

[scottb]

Since you're in Southern California, give Dave at TRE a call. He'll give you straightforward, honest answers.

www.tremotorsports.com

[81 911 SC]

Originally posted by evopanop
I've looked at Motor Meister, including many, many others, and I'm just looking for some helpful guidance to narrow down the choices. The smartest way to spend my money.

Well with that said do not send your engine to motor meister unless you want to spend double rebuilding in a few months after they touch it.

[evopanop]

Thanks for the informative replies, everyone. It looks like I'll be dropping the motor out, pulling it apart, and doing the rebuild myself. I will definitely be using Supertec and TRE Motorsports as valuable resources, though. Again, thanks for all of the informative posts.

[khamul02]

Originally posted by evopanop
And, of course, the most expensive way being to send the motor to a place like Motor Meister

"the most expensive way"