911 Polybronze and monoballs: Maintenance?

[GaryR]

The reason I ask is because I am in the process of rebuilding my SC's rear suspension and i'm using the 18 month old parts from my doner car. I was surprised at the condition of the parts. Though still serviceable, it's a darn good thing I dissasembled everything when I did! The Polybronze sleeves, which I just JB Welded on the shafts of my 930, used to be (per Smart Racings kit) installed with shims. Now I know why they stopped doing it that way. Every shim but one had come loose. Needless to say they are JB Welded now. The bushings also were lacking grease, which is my fault as I couldn't get a gun on the darn nipples very well. I bought a special 90 degree fitting for my gun, hopefully that will work or i'll take the torsion covers off to get to them after every race/DE from now on.

Monoballs. I was going to dissasemble and repack them and discovered that these VERY expensive bushings have a cheap Chinese bearing in them (which is pretty worn for the amount i've run it!). I'm going to try and source a replacement bearing. I have a new set but I may wait for a better bearing before I install them, depends on timing..

So I guess my point is don't think because you spent a ka-gillion dollars on the best parts you are home free!

[Steve@Rennsport]

Hi Gary:

Without a doubt, the ONLY thing that is maintenance-free are the OEM rubber bushings and I am VERY careful about who I sell the Poly-Bronze ones to. For many people, OEM rubber ones are the best solution.

Chuck's instructions are quite explict about greasing them with the right product and its hard for me to fathom anyone installing these thing in a dry condition. These won't last long without lubrication but thankfully, a few pumps of the grease gun at oil change time makes this an easy task while the oil is draining.

Monoballs without zerk fittings use stainless liners and should never be lubricated otherwise these will wear out in short order; grease or oil are simply dirt magnets. OTOH, If you see a zerk on a spherical bearing or rod end, its a sign that these use bronze bushings that require lubrication. I am VERY particular about the brand and type of monoballs that I use as I've found cheaper ones have no longevity at all. NMB/NMBB, only.

[GaryR]

Yep, the greasing was an issue I had, it's pretty much impossible to get any gun I own (3 different types!) on those fittings once installed. I will do whatever it takes from this point on. It's not a deficiency in the polybronze design and I sure didn't mean to make it sound like that, but the system to keep them lubricated needs work. As for the monoballs, I was surprised to see the dinky Chinese bearings and even more surprised to find play in one with so little use. I'm just trying to figure out a way to keep them in better shape as changing them out isn't an easy thing to do..

[Walko]

So have the installtion procedures changed for poly bronze.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Any part you put on your car is only as good as the installation and maintenance.

I sold the complete suspension out of my 84 Targa when I parted it out. Part of the deal was reassembly onto the buyer's car. the ER bearings F/R had 22K hard miles on them. the rears were in excellent condition and only required cleaning and reassembly. they were greased ever 3-4 months. I use a flexible line on the gun and never have a problem.

Fronts were a different story. Salt had gotten into the bearings and the races (driven in winter) with some corrosion and I wasn't comfortable putting them on the new car so I got another set from Chuck.

Keep them greased, keep them clean of salt and you shouldn't have any issues.

[Evans, Marv]

Shaun,
What do you mean you use a "flexible line on the gun?" I've never found anything that would fit to grease the rear PB bearings. Chuck once suggested grinding down a standard tip on a grease gun. Haven't tried it yet, so I don't know if it works.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Evans, Marv

Shaun,
What do you mean you use a "flexible line on the gun?" I've never found anything that would fit to grease the rear PB bearings. Chuck once suggested grinding down a standard tip on a grease gun. Haven't tried it yet, so I don't know if it works.

Marv, it's a 12 inch flexible extension with standard tip at the end. I tried the angle tips, etc., but this thing works perfectly.

Quick Google Image search for grease gun flexible line turned up a lot. I think I got mine at AutoZone.

[cbeers]

I agree.
Make sure that your zirc fittings are aligned properly and you shouldn't have any trouble at all. I use just a standard issue gun with a flexible hose and have no problems. I grease them at every oil change (every 3-4k miles) and before every track day (a few per year). I have also found that it helps sometimes to hold the grease gun tip on the zirc with one hand while pumping. This makes for a more positive contact between gun and zirc.

I installed the rear SP bearings/bushings about a 1 1/2 years before I rebuilt the suspension and I am happy to say that mine had plenty of grease in them. I haven't had the front apart since the rebuild in Feb '07.

Hope this helps


-Chris

[GaryR]

Well, not sure what tips you guys have but there is no way I can easily get to those fittings. I'll play around to see if I can point the zerks differently but they seem to only work (as I remember) pointing toward the front of the car next to each other.. any pictures of an "easy to grease" install?

[safe]

I have problems getting the grease gun to fit one of the zerks. A smaller tip than the "standard" would be great, but I haven't found one yet.

I have noticed that it's easier to grease up the rear bushings if the weight of the car are taken of the bushings. I'm not sure that's in the instructions.

[KNS]

The problem I have had is that the grease fittings on the rear PB spring plate bushings rotated within the torsion bar tube. The fittings are still there but are even harder to get at.

[GaryR]

The original reason for this post was my alarm at the shims all (but one) coming loose, allowing the sleeve to move around, and the monoball bearings condition. The greasing issue is mostly of my own doing (or lack of) and trust me, it will be rectified.

[Matt_West]

My understanding is that the front bearings are no longer Chinese. If you have a difficulty with the product, that is unrelated to your neglect; I recommend talking to Chuck as he has been extraordinarily fair in his dealings with me.

[GaryR]

What front bearings are you referring to, the monoballs in the Wevo Camber King setup? Those will last a long time. I'm talking about the ER monoballs that the rear trailing arms attach to the torsion tube with. I just bought my 3rd set and this isn't "news" to Chuck. It is a good product but could be better (and that will most likely mean more expensive) with a higher quality bearing. You CAN change out the monoball bearings and keep alignment intact (I think you can get to them?) and it's something that absolutely needs attention on a race or track car.

[Chuck Moreland]

Gary, if you are having problems with a set of Elephant monoballs please do get in contact with me.

I'm at a disadvantage here because I don't show any Gary R. in my customer database, so I don't know who you are or your purchase history.

If you just bought a set of monoballs that have chinese bearings in them, they didn't come from Elephant Racing. While I did experiment with a chinese brand early on, I've been using Aurora bearings exclusively for years now and with excellent results.

[GaryR]

Chuck, it isn't a problem per se but I was surprised by the ones that were purchased in August of 2005 (through Dan Jacobs at the time) were Chinese and worn out when disassembled. Though two years old the car has been out of service since 6/07 and had only seen about 50 days of track use (2 races, rest just DE's). I haven't taken apart the new ones and I obviously don't have to if you say you have switched to Aurora bearings, very glad to hear it! I won't be in your database as all my stuff comes though Dan J's shop. I put a set in my 930 a few months ago so those will have the Aurora bearings in them too, which is more good news. Do you have a recommended replacement interval for the new bearings or all they all still in service since switching?

Again, I obviously think your parts are excellent and this all wasn't about anything except to make people aware of potential failures in both the shimmed-sleeved polybronze bushings (AND if they are not properly maintained, which seems from all the PM's to be an issue) and the monoballs if not checked.

[island911]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

...
Fronts were a different story. Salt had gotten into the bearings and the races (driven in winter) with some corrosion and I wasn't comfortable putting them on the new car so I got another set from Chuck.

Keep them greased, keep them clean of salt and you shouldn't have any issues.

It seems someone warned of bronze having weatherability issues (among other) waaayyy back. Tho' he likely was just making up stuff like that for fun.

What a great product position; if it fails, just say "it was improper maintenance. . . YOU didn't grease enough those hard to get to zirks with the custom ground grease-gun tip. . . or you installed them wrong" --That's genius.

Certainly the failure modes have nothing to do with a poor material selection, nor poor control of the sliding interface.

[john70t]

The installation is crucial for these things!
-If the bushing is too loose, the whole thing will rotate and make the grease nipple unaccessable-if it doesn't break them off. Slots first need to be cut on the outside so that the glue can "grip" the smooth surface, the torque tube cleaned, and the shims need to be tight.
-If the bearing is too tight, the surfaces will grind each other off.

My experience was here: Pics of my suspension project, and there are some other great posts in the archives. The search function doesn't seem to be working though.

Perhaps they could be re-engineered with a tab to prevent rotation and some kind of depth-stop to make it foolproof for fools like me; I began to look like Terry Bradshaw after the install.
(Chuck, the kit I bought a few years ago could have had better instructions and more shims. Nice product otherwise.)

Also jack it up before greasing so it will flow to the top easier.

[GaryR]

Originally Posted by john70t

The installation is crucial for these things!
-If the bushing is too loose, the whole thing will rotate and make the grease nipple unaccessable-if it doesn't break them off. Slots first need to be cut on the outside so that the glue can "grip" the smooth surface, the torque tube cleaned, and the shims need to be tight.
-If the bearing is too tight, the surfaces will grind each other off.

You really lost me. Cut slots in the poly part of the bushing so it doesn't spin? It's a pretty snug fit and mine never moved. What glue are you talking about? What shims, they don't use shims anymore, the steel sleeves that the bronze rides on are JB Welded to the torsion arms. How can the bearings be too tight?

Installation is very important, I agree, but my shop installed these parts perfectly and by the book. My problems had nothing to do with installation, just engineering, maintenance, and a chinese parts reliability.

[KNS]

So what is the likelihood of the grease nipples breaking off if they have rotated within the torsion bar tube? I just greased them yesterday and they look okay, they aren't able to rotate anymore. I want to take this car to the track and I'm worried about hard cornering forces snapping these things off...