Bob and Keith I will send you guys a PM when I can figure it out I can read your messages but cant reply

Michael

Yes... a 964 would have been the right choice.

I can see a lot of plusses and really just a few minuses....

+ It has a 3.6 already. And if the stock is not enough $$$ the sky is the limit (well ok 400-425hp is the limit for street applications)

+ Much improved gearbox and you can fit the newer G50/21 or 30-31-32 evolutions

+ ABS. For a street car I think ABS is a wonderful thing to have!

+ Stiffer tub. We put my car ('74 chassis) next door to the "C2 to 72 RSR" on and you could easily see what Porsche did in order to strenghten and stiffen the chassis.

+ Coilovers... No need for expensive reinforcemets, welds etc. Great base for eventual upgrades.

+ Working AC.

I am usure I have left a couple of benefits behind.. but I think the above really stand out.

Minuses...

- In some states you still have to pass emissions with newer cars. That could limit your freedom when designing the engine.

- Not period correct... This is really a minor point but it will always be a 92 backdated... But then you'd have the same problem starting with an SC or Carrera.

- weight... I think there might be 2-300lbs difference between a stripped 72 (Like DW's car @2,120) and a C2 RSR. But realize that the difference all comes from "upgrades" like the 6-speed transmission, ABS, AC, Stiffer body etc... As a reference my car (74 with 92 floorpan and 6-speed transmission) weighs 2,360lbs.

If I did it again I would start with a 964 tub.

Good luck with your quest.

And back to the original question about IROC vs RSR...

Leaving the 72/73 2.8 RSR aside (longhoods etc) the decision wether to go for wide (IROC) or superwide (74 3.0 RSR) depends on:

- You can use steel for the IROC (930 front fenders and rear flares) whilst you need to use fiberglass for the wide RSRs fenders.
- The extra wide fenders will need to be filled with extra wide wheels.
- The 74 RSR were running centerlock style wheels as Bob(a) mentioned above... If you are after that look I think the centerlocks wheels are a must.
- The IROC is very similar to a 930 (no rockers and clean bumpers.. but the dimensions are the same). The 74 RSR is sick (in a wonderfully positive way) and it is not often that you see such an outrageous car on the road.

Thank you Matteo!

You make several great points...

The most important, to me, whether I start with a SC, Carrera, Turbo, 964 basically anything other than a 72-74, the clone wont be based on a period correct tub. To me, I care but not that much as it needs to suit me and my needs. If it is ever sold I already know that I will be dealing with a VERY narrow market since it is a clone. BUT IT WILL BE A GREAT AND VERY WELL MADE CLONE!!!

Maybe I am making more that I should about wanting a/c, but it seems that the nice days to drive are usually 80+ degrees and humid 50-60+% ... I know I will be dripping in sweat in the car...and I am in shape.

This is why I am also looking into putting in pop-out rear windows AND door opening fly windows to add more air circulation in the cabin.

It is a matter of $$, but it is also a matter of me being comfortable, oh and did I forget, the mrs wont drive/RIDE in a car w/o a/c when it is hot out... she already has a hot enough disposition and I dont need the weather to add to it or to trigger her be-otching ;-)

So, as I type, 964 looks like the way to go. Can any of you guys try taking the position of the other side of the coin/consideration?? i.e. a 72-74 tub as starting point??

The early tub direction should get a little more "air" dont you all think?? Maybe some $$ estimates to the mods for either tub to start with?? Maybe Keith Walters can pipe in since he is quite close to this subject. Start with tub purchase price that is available, sell this and that for X, buy this, mod that...so we can see a estimate of total $$ for either tub as the starting point.

I know I offered to do it, however I am not the one in the know and close enough to the real costs of tubs, parts, mods, and what will be needed, AGAIN,

to COST EFFECTIVELY BUILD A RSR CLONE !!

Bob

As Bill said earlier it all boils down to what drivertrain you want/need and what gearbox.

Lets start with the motor.... First choice is turbo vs n/a. It's worth talking about becaus you said you want 300hp from your motor. Well then a 3.6 is 10k (unless it comes with the car) and the bits and pieces needed to get to 300hp will set you back 3-4k.

A 993 TT engine is around 20-22k. Now this has 408hp stock. It's twin turbo so no huge turbo lag and.... you can always resell it...

But let's say you stay n/a. The higher HP and torque the lesser the 915 transmission is going to be able to cope.
So G50 it is. Which means that if you go with an early tub you'll have to spend $$$ for mods...

But if you plan on putting a 3.2 in it then the 915 is perfect. And you can end up with a great and nimble car like DW's clone mentioned above.



But to build a GT3 chaser I would start from a 964. It gives you the most flexibility and half of the stuff you want to do is already there (A/C, coilovers, 3.6 engine, good transmission, ABS).

Bob,

I don't think "COST EFFECTIVELY" and "BUILD A RSR CLONE" belong in the same sentence.:D

That being said, you have started to lay out your requirements and as you go forward you will need to make some compromises or trade offs. Track suspension is harsh on the street (read teeth rattling) while a compliant setup may be to soft on the track. think of it as a continuum with full race on one end and full street comfort on the other now pick the point on this continuum that you want. Now do the same with the motor, creature comforts (heat and AC), fit and finish (think glass vs. steel flairs) and all the rest of your requirements.

As to the cost of starting with a early tub vs. a 964. The total cost may be very close. In the case of the 964 the cost of the starting platform will be more but you will have a lot of the package. With an early tub there will be the inevitable rust repair, finding and building the motor, engineering the transplant (tub>motor>gearbox). In the end both can get you to the result RSR CLONE.

You are on the correct path in the questions you are asking. You now need to start making some of your basic choices and this will help you see your next set of decision points. Work your way thru this before you commit any $$$.

Of course the other way is to find a neat part (slidevalve, highbutterfly, centerlocks) and build a car around that part. :eek:

I recommend the full planning path.;)

Thanks Matteo & Bob!

Matteo: Please explain what I would need to buy for the $3-4k to put into the stk 3.6 and any idea what hp after?
As far as buying a turbo or TT, my guess is that approach would be, what... $30-50k... sell the t or tt engine for $10-15k... that would leave me with a tub pretty much done except the turbo flares are destinctively different than RS or RSR, and I would need to buy a 3.6 & g50 (unless t or tt use/have g50 trans?)... I am already blind by the initial $$ outlay signs...

I am more and more thinking 964 tub to start with: tub, a/c, abs, coil overs, a 3.6 & g50 in some level of condition, can possibly sell what is removed. This covers many creature areas well!!

As far as t or tt for car push, I dont want to venture down that addictive road...I would not make it out alive!! I know myself well enough by now. ;-)

As much as early tub is "more correct", there is another factor we all have not brought up...as my a^s gets sore in the chair typing this...as good a shape as I am in, NOW, this project has "ME" doing as much as possible (to be as economical as possible-dont laugh...I know we are talking Porsche here) but WE AREN'T GETTING ANY YOUNGER HERE ARE WE BOYS??? I dont want to start a project that may be "more" period correct and this and that, to wind up having created a project that, um, saved me $2-5k, BUT IT ADDED 2 YRS TO THE BUILD TIME...That is NOT cost effective to me!! I am 48.5 yrs old now and I want to either wear out (hopefully not wreck) what ever I build!!

So, I think we are on track for a 964! All in favor say yeaaaaaaaaa... all the ney sayers speak now, if not now, than forever hold your peace!

Now to engine spec... I want T O R Q U E !! I mean stump puller that pushes you so deep into the seats that one envisions the cartoon image of the eye balls stretched out of the eye sockets and the head about 2' in back of the eye!! I am not looking to break any sound barrier...I just want to get from starting, if possible, or at 20-30mph up to 100 as quick as possible. I dont care if it takes 2 gears or 6 gears to accomplish this. Run on 93 pump gas.
stk varioram or carbs I dont care unless there is significant gas mileage differences in the two...I know it depends on how it is driven...lets compare both at 30, 60 and 80-90mph i.e. around town driving, cruising on the highway or cooking on the highway.

Bob: also great input, thanks! Lets all work on the engine outline I just stated above.
Also, Bob, you made a great point about determining the level/point of performance/comfort I am aiming for... As far as suapension goes, I envision the car to be 90-95% street/aggressive street, the balance in de and who knows what else. If demands increase on the car, wont it be easier to increase performance on the 964?? Tell me the truth here... what about cost?? a shock absorber is a shock absorber (bilstein...not the foxx's or jrz's though they sound sweet to program both directions of travel... oh I better stop there).

I will stop for now so we all can catch up to each other on these topics.

Thanks everyone!
Bob

walko, you can email me directly if you want at: bobf@design-asociates.us

Thanks alot! Bob

The cheapest way is to find a car already built or one that has a good chassis/drive train that will take an RSR style body. That being said I like the IROC cars better than the RSR's :)

When I mention the 993 TT i was talking about the engine. You can buy a 993 TT engine for 20-25k (depending on the condition/mileage). The 993 TT engine fits just as well as a n/a 3.6.

I mention this route because you are already looking at 15-16k with your 3.6 n/a. Find a decent motor, buy cams, solid lifters, arp bolts, new chip, new exhaust etc + labor and you are really close to 16k.

I know the jump from 16k to 20-22k is not small... but you are talking torque and power and a 993 TT engine will give u both plenty in stock configuration.


There are a lot of way to spend/save 3-4k on these projects...

As Bob(a) mentioned above sit down and decide where you want to go with this.

The motor is a good start.

To get close to 300hp (and let's leave the turbo motors out for a second) the cheapest way is to get a 3.6L.

Now if you buy a 964 then you have your engine already. Swapping the exhaust will yield 15-20hp (like PAG did with the introduction of the 993). Then cams, solid lifters, new chip and I bet you are close.

This is a video of a 3.6 SC being dynoed....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzfPeeu7BBI

It puts out 280 rwhp. This is the thread about that car...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=152897&highlight=brother+have+see n+the+light

Good reading....

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/364075-1987-930-3-4-twin-plug-engine.html

It might be a cheaper way than a 964 especially if you decide that you do not really need coilovers with adj shocks....

Sell the engine and the transmission....

Make sure the brakes are 930 etc.... everything else is already there. Strip a bit here and there....

If stump-pulling torque is important to you, then you're really in the wrong neighborhood with the air-cooled flat sixes. A 300 hp motor isn't all that wild, compared to a lot of (inexpensive) modern performance cars. The light weight of a 911 makes it pretty quick with 250-300 hp, especially through curves. But if you want to feel straight-line thrust, get a Turbo motor -- it'll fit under the IROC/RSR tail options. And buying an already-built turbo motor will be cost- and time-effective compared to tearing open an air cooled engine to try and get more out of it.

Buying a finished project is the only path that meets all of the benchmarks you've set for this. It's by far the most cost-effective way to go, and even if it takes a year to find the right car, it won't be a year of drifting deadlines and bleeding cash.

Do a search on recent posts with "rattlsnak" in them to see a beautiful green car that fits the bill and has come up for sale a couple of times, now.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/361675-1990-porsche-c2-rare-opportunity.html

Here is a good starting point.

you are correct Boba! That is almost too good of a start, however, I could sell off the "prestine" pcs I dont use on the RSR making.

Only 1 problem... I dont have the $22k now... SH^T!! I new this would happen...soon as I "tweaked" and defined my plan, sure as sh^t wouldnt the perfect deal appear.

As they say, timing is everything in life.

thanks all. I now have the plan and idea of some of the costs associated with such.

Time for planning of a different type ;-) ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)!

Thanks again guys!
Bob

Bob

James Shira's car is not one to cut up and make into a clone. That 964 is sorted and it's best left as it is...

You need to find one with 200k miles, nasty paint, shot suspension and pay 12-14k for it. Then sell whatever you can.

But you'd be hard pressed to be able to build a 964 based RSR with 300hp and all the bells and whisles for less than 35k.

I think Jack's suggestion is the best. Wait for the right car to come up for sale. A project nearly done, or a finished one whose owner is moving onto a new challenge. At 35/50 cents to the dollar a 40k-50k conversion can be had at very decent money.

Take a look at James' car... I know for sure you'd spend close to the asking price to get an ok shaped 964 to that level....

Hey Jack and all... I have been trying to find the car you mention under "rattlsnak" and I cant find the car, I think you are referring to, to check it out.
By chance you can post a link...
Bob

Thanks Jack! Is that car the one that the guy did all of that hood mod to have the front oil cooler vent over the TOP of the front hood and to help with down pressure/force on the front end??
Either way, is there a thread you can tell me so I can read up on what went into making that awesome looking car?
This is not your Black Beauty in different color now is it?
Thanks for everything Jack. And oh, by the way, you are right to try and find a almost completed resto or conversion project and buy it for 30-50 cents on the dollar...only 1 problem...I live in New England and there are not many of these such candidates in these parts...it is hard to ship x-country a roller or engine not running yet car w/o covering it all up and how do you get em' up on the carrier if they dont have their own power to move them? Do the x-country rigs have cables and winches?
Thanks again, Bob

Click on the picture and it will take you to one of the threads about Rattlsnak's car.

This is true but there is a split between early IROC / RSR VS. late IROC / RSR cars. The early IROC carswith the first being in 1973 and being long hood cars with the equivalent of 'turbo' flares in size. In 1974 the early cars had the same 'early' flares but then I believe it was mid 74 that porsche had the vented front and rear fenders and wider flares.

I agree with Jack. It is always cheaper to buy the HP torque that you are looking for. Even if that means finding a stock TT 3.6 (around 20 - 25K). However, I also agree that stump pulling torque is not what it takes to get a 2000 -2300 pound car moving. My 74 is 2370 pounds wet (yes on the scales not a guess) and with my 96 3.6 I can cross the 0-60 threshold in under 4 seconds and go as fast as I care to to. I have owned many muscle cars including a Buick GS with a 455 Stage I, 71 corvette with a modified 454, 68 camaro with a 406" 550 hp small block... on and on...

My little 74 will flat kick but over any of those cars. It is a completely different sensation ... It just hooks up and flies, handles well and stops well.

Thanks Larry! What did you do to your 74' to get it to that weight? Are you running a turbo or non turbo 3.6 in the tub?
You are right with your muscle car comparisons! If you are quicker/faster than the muscle cars you site, than your 74' is definatley going like a bat out of h^ll...we all need to know more of how you are doing this...please clue us in with what it took to do this.
Bob

I'm not Larry but I also have a 1974 911 (Euro-spec Carrera), and that weight isn't terribly difficult to achieve in these cars. The process is heavily documented on this site with many different builds, but in short, it usually involves replacement of the stock interior with lightweight carpet kits and racing seats (preceded by removal of sound padding, cushions, seats, etc), lighter muffler, light weight door panels, fiberglass front and rear bumpers, fiberglass decklid and hood, sunroof removal (if you have it), removal of all A/C components, etc. Other losses are harder to come by, but they include plastic windows, fiberglass doors, removal of impact bumper shocks, stripping the undercoating on the tub, having earlier and/or lighter mag motor and transmission cases, no heating plumbing or blower motors, replaced heat exchangers with headers, etc. Adding things like extra oil coolers and plumbing, transmission coolers and plumbing, roll bars, shock tower braces, fire suppression, and other safety items will put some weight back in, but even with those, weights under 2,400 lbs aren't too hard to find. A fair number of cars on this site are substantially less than that.

Regarding Larry's formidable power, I can't exactly comment on a 3.6, but I know it has more torque than my RS+ spec 2.7, and with a shortened 8:31 gearbox, my car is almost scarry fast, even in first gear. I recently reminded myself of this as I've been very absent from all things car related the last few months, but I just took the 911 out this past Saturday for a quick exercise, and I was giggling and a little intimidated by what the damned thing would do once the motor was warm and wound up above 5k. Very head-snapping acceleration. And at freeway speeds, in say a short 3rd gear at 5-6k, you can pretty much just drive away from almost anyone at will. So Larry's extra 40 horses or so over mine (assuming his is a stock 3.6) with extra torque to boot and roughly equal weights makes his reported performance believable.

As ever, light weight + reasonable power = very fast and fun car. Nothing else I've driven compares.

Matteo-Thanks for the kind words. At under 2200 lbs, with the 3.6 and 275 RWHP and 274 RHTQ my car is pretty quick. I don't have any idea of 0 to 60, but it gets the adrenalin going.

As for tweaks interests, here's an idea:

Many folks have suggested buying someon else's project. Build something 100% yourself, do all of the labor and still end up with a car which still is worth less than the sum of the parts. That is one option. The latter is buying a project as has been pointed out.

Here's a killer one, which is complete, and now has some provenance of which I am aware:

Paul Rodelo is selling his IROC clone based on a 930. It has a freshly rebuilt engine by AASE motors, rebuilt, upgraded suspension (23 + 33mm T-bars, revalved bilsteins) by Steve Alarcon and FG IROC bodywork and stripped interior. It is light and pulls hard with the stock + 930 engine. Well, it was upgraded a bit with 964 cams and some other parts.

I think it weighed 2500 lbs +. Also it just won best of show at German Auto Fest and was featured a month or two ago in Excellence. I think he's asking $45k. It would probably cost 2X to build it.

It also has fresh paint, 17" Lindsey wheels, new tires, B&B cooler, aftermarket sport seats, harnesses, lightweight IROC style exhaust, etc, etc. Pretty sweet. I think Paul kept all of the parts to return it to stock, too.

You could mod the engine for more power as necessary for another 100HP without a lot of work. A few hundred would likely be possible and plenty for a 2500 lb car.

Seek out Paul Rodelo on the board. Paul and his wife want to buy a home in SoCal, so the car is going on the block.

Doug

thank Doug & Pieter for your inputs.

I guess it still comes down to what one wants to spend. Well, one obvious answer/approach is that I dont want to say how much I am willing to spend as I could possibly overspend for a car that is worth a lot less. BEAUTY IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!! And when it comes to Porsche cars, man, I have a tough time taking the emotion out of the decision and determining what is smart and what is stupid to do!

The other side of the coin is that if I spend for parts and build as I go, you all are correct that I will wind up with getting 30-50 cents on the dollar I spent if and when I sell it... THUS THE QUANDRY...

I guess there is a price to this exercise/project just as with anything in life. Decisions , decisions.

However the latter approach of buy and convert as I go, is a fun process that I enjoy doing, and it is the least painful way to spend $20-30k in $100 to $1000 increments VS. somehow coming up with $20-30K all at one time on the spot!!

I think I will continue to buy and accumulate stuff that is in the direction of RSR and when I pull the pin and start assembling, I will sell and buy the final stuff needed then. I really do want to do this project myself as I as way to anial (no jokes) to accept most peoples level of quality of work. HOWEVER, when I see what I think is nice, it costs an arm and a leg to buy...further convincing me to do it myself. DAMN!! It is soo hard to swallow/accept only being able to get 30-50 cents on the dollar is and when it is sold. BUT, I have such a wicked jones for a RSR it is not funny!! I want a sleeper in the worst way!!

I guess it is time to suck it up and get-r-dun before I am too old and miss my window of ability to do it and enjoy it.

Now, how to schedule like Tom Butler did on his clone making, 1-1.5 hrs in the AM everyday to make progress in a reasonable amount of time to complete the project. I guess no more wine at nite as that definatley impaires my ability to get up early in the AM.

Thanks for letting me ramble guys... now I feel better. TIME TO MAKE A SCHEDULE AND PLAN OF WHAT i HAVE AND DONT HAVE FOR PARTS & WHERE TO START ON THE TUB!!
Bob

I'm Sorry, but I have to disagree. IROC cars share the serial sequence#s of 1974 EURO Carreras; 911 460 0016, 0025, 0035, 0037, 0040, 0042, 0059, 0075, 0085, 0090, 0100, and 911 460 0116. My Euro Carrera is 911 460 0350. The IROCs were delivered to Penske with Ducktails. The 1974 RS & RSR share the serial sequence of 911 460 9001 to 911 460 9109. Virtually all the IROCs were converted to RSR spec for IMSA racing and most have now been restored back to IROC configuration.

T.C.

2 or 3 X that to build it. Also, I did not go crazy with weight reductions. Only fiberglass bumpers, light weight battery, light weight starter, 935 suspension components, rear seat delete with perlon carpet and rid of all sound pad. Oh the rear wing is fiberglass too. but the flares, hood and doors are steel.

By serial # sequence 911.460.****


yes, the IROCS were 911.460.0***
and the RS /RSRs were 911.460.9***