Lowering the Targa

[wnsgc]

Greetings,

I've finally decided to get my 85 Targa lowered. The combination of the
American road height and the bilsteins I installed have created a vehicle
fit for the Paris-Dakar rally, and although I've gotten used to the step-ladder
required to mount and dismount my vehicle, I'm ready for a change.

I went to a known place in central NJ, and was given an estimate of the work,
which includes:

- Remove front torsion bars, inspect bushings in lower arms, reset and adjust
to euro road height
- Remove rear torsion bars, inspect bushings, reset and lower to euro
road height
- 4 wheel computer alignment and corner weight balance

The total for this work is $700, minus my PCA discount

Then, if the lower A arm bushings are worn out (which very well may be
the case, as the car has 120k miles on it), and the torsion bars are damaged
(and both need to be replaced) I'm looking at an additional $1300 (minus
my PCA discount) for labor and parts (control arms, torsion bars, etc.)

Thus a total of $2k or thereabouts to lower the car. Whereas its not
definite the additional work is required, this very well may be the case.

Based upon the knowledge of the Pelican Heads, does this sound about
right? I'm sure once this work is done, I'll notice quite a difference in
handling and suspension.

Thoughts?
Thanks.

[tonythetarga]

The rear bushings should be replaced when you remove the covers in any case. A visual inspection of the the fronts and rears right now will tell you if they need replacing. In the rear wheel wells, look at the end of the t bar cover as it comes through the bracket (with the 4 bolts). If the t bar cover is not centered and it looks closer to the top of the opening, then the rubber is worn and should be replaced.
The t-bars should be OK unless they have been exposed to year round driving and salt exposure. Unless you want to upgrade to bigger bars, you can probably re-use the ones you have. There are a lot of used stock bars available at reasonable prices and I would not hesitate to buy those if you need them. New stock replacement bars are just as expensive as bigger bars. Unless you plan to track the car stock is fine.
I would count on rear bushing replacement which is much easier that the fronts. The lowering is pretty much just labor/time. The fronts can be lowered without taking the bars out at all but the bars are easy enough to remove and replace for inspection and greasing. To replace the front bushings, the a-arm has to be removed, the pin in the strut that holds the ball joint has to be replaced. The bushings have to be cut off and peeled back. The quote the shop gave you is probably not out of line and they are doing a complete disassembley, inspection, lube and reinstall. I noticed you didn't mention anythig about ball joints, it is possible they could be done if the boot is torn or there is excessive wear/rust.
I would try a second shop for a comparison quote or if you are reasonably mechanical, you can do it yourself. I did mine this past spring and with help from the board and the spring plate angle calculator, got it done for my time plus bushings. At the end of the day, the only other labor was for the alignment and corner balance.
I'd try Mike Carr at Powertech in Rockaway, NJ. (973) 586-3210. Good guy.

[Monza_dh]

I just lowered my rear end a few inches after removing a turbo wing and installing Bilstiens. Its not a hard or too complex job but it takes time to remove everything (I needed a littel heat for bolts stuck after 2O yrs of not moving) and then getting the correct setting once done.

I was lucky and didnt need to replace the rear bushings because they looked good and when I swapped my spring plates from right to left the untouched bushing side is now doing the work.

I also got my fender lip ride height perfect to 25" on the second try. The Haynes manual, Waynes book and Workshop manuals were a godsend.

I'm no mechanic, just a tech sales guy, and over two weekends with the car on jack stands I was done.

You then can spend the $$$ on something else!

[wnsgc]

A couple of questions. I re-read the sections last night from Wayne's book regarding lowering the car and replacement of the torsion bars. Each bar end has a rubber bushing, and if these bushings get bad, the torsion bar can hit the inside of its holder (control arm, etc.) thus the bushing and the torsion bar needs to be replaced. The place I took my car to told me I'd have to replace the A-arm (control arm) also, as there's no way to get the rubber bushings off the front w/o damaging the arm(s). This lead to the possible $2k in charges. If the bushing and torsion bar is bad, is there a way to replace them w/o having to purchase a new arm?

Also, why did you (Monza_dh) switch the rear plates from left->right and right->left? I didn't see that listed anywhere in Wayne's book and I'm trying to understand why?

Thanks again.

[tonythetarga]

If you do a search for Elephant Racing poly-bronze bushings you will find a ton of info on installing these on the front control arms. You do not have to replace the entire arm to get new bushings. Chuck Mooreland from ER is a regular contributor here and is always there to help with the answers on his products. You could also use the plastic bushings but they can be finiky to fit and will squeek a lot if not machined to be a perfect fit. The ER p-b's are awesome and come with the grease fitting to keep them lubed. That repair is a DIY job and not difficult to do. The rears are more difficult but there is plenty of good info on this site, with photo's to get you through it.

Your other question about the guy who reversed his spring plates; I never heard about that either but the weight of the car and the wear is on one side of the bushing so when you reverse sides, you use the side that was not compressed. I think you would be better off with new bushings instead of reversing as the spring plates need to be marked (scribed) with the angle you removed them where the plate and the rear control arm interface. By switching them, things don't line up quite the same.

[Nine9six]

Originally Posted by tonythetarga

If you do a search for Elephant Racing poly-bronze bushings you will find a ton of info on installing these on the front control arms. You do not have to replace the entire arm to get new bushings. Chuck Mooreland from ER is a regular contributor here and is always there to help with the answers on his products. You could also use the plastic bushings but they can be finiky to fit and will squeek a lot if not machined to be a perfect fit. The ER p-b's are awesome and come with the grease fitting to keep them lubed. That repair is a DIY job and not difficult to do. The rears are more difficult but there is plenty of good info on this site, with photo's to get you through it.

Your other question about the guy who reversed his spring plates; I never heard about that either but the weight of the car and the wear is on one side of the bushing so when you reverse sides, you use the side that was not compressed. I think you would be better off with new bushings instead of reversing as the spring plates need to be marked (scribed) with the angle you removed them where the plate and the rear control arm interface. By switching them, things don't line up quite the same.

Aligning and corner balancing should occur after lowering. Swaping spring plates is a simple way to try and extend the life of the existing bushings.
Usually after 20 yrs, a replacement should be done while you're in there, but not many plan on the cost of Chuck's beautiful poly-bronze bushings. If one did not plan for new bushings, I would certainly swap plates in order to get the non-compressed side of the bushing in the business location.

[tonythetarga]

I should clarify, I was suggesting putting the polybronze on the fronts and the fresh neatrix on the rears. The pb fronts are a better and less expensive repair than replacing the entire front a-arm with new rubber bushings.

[wnsgc]

What difference in ride would I see if I replaced the factory rubber bushing with the polybronze? I'm not going to race this car, thus I want to maintain a comfortable road feel, however I'm not looking forward to possibly spending $800 for new a-arms and the factory rubber bushings.

[tonythetarga]

The feel of the car improves substantially. It is much crisper during cornering. The bushings need to be greased periodically to maintain optimum performance, but in my view, are much much better than the original rubber bushings. Check the tech articles section and read about bushing replacements and search for how to do it.
Have a look here: http://www.elephantracing.com/techtopic/suspensiondeformation.htm
to get a visual of how the rubber suspension works in comparison to the polybronze.
Your a-arms will stay centered all the time, do not deform like rubber and can't help but improve the way your car handles. These bushings also keep your torsion bars from contacting the insides of the a-arm tubes.

[Monza_dh]

I got the springplate swap idea from a local tech who does a lot of race set ups and does this often. My bushings only had slight scuff marks and minimal depression so when I swapped them I have a factory gap to the plate cover.

Replacing the bushings would have been a logical thing to do but with all the options out there and the fact that I havent made up my mind on t-bars etc I figured I'd get a few more yrs/miles on the "not so bad" bushings before I make a major decision.

[efhughes3]

I doubt your t-bars are bad. But, you need to go into this with new bushings on the list of things to be done. Inspection of bushings on a 120K car is worthless. I'd be a little concerned that the shop doesn't know enough to counsel you on the merits of replacing bushings as part of this work.