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On a slightly different note, does anyone have old copies of the Porsche approved oil list, something before the latest revision from '03 or '04? I wanted something say, from the early to late 90s.

Even as late as '03 and '04, in the owner's manuals for a Turbo, GT2, or GT3, Porsche called for an API SH or SJ oil, which would be pretty close to Brad Penn, Swepco 306, or even most motorcycle or racing oils.

Here's a suggestion. Why don't we try to see which approved oils have the earlier (non-SM or even SL) ratings?

I did the same for my VWs with the 505.01 spec, and found that Motul made a specific oil with an SJ rating, and good Zn and P with approval from VW. Unfortuneately, it was discontinued and replaced with an API SM product just a few months ago, but I stockpiled about 100 quarts of it, which should last a while, although both cars take 12 qts ea ever 5,000 mi.
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Old 09-26-2007, 07:53 AM
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Does Brad Penn and Swepco have "normal" levels of detergency, or are they low on detergents, like the racing oils? (VR-1 NSL)?
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Old 09-26-2007, 09:16 AM
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Charles which VW's take that much oil and only go 5000 miles onit?
Old 09-26-2007, 10:06 AM
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Well, both the W8 and V10 TDI engines have 12 quart wet sumps; both have 10,000 mi intervals according to the dealer, if not even longer - I have seen european specs say evn 15,000 mi.

Both Brad Penn and Swepco are a minimum of 10.0 TBN, which meets Porsche's requirements as well as the ACEA A3/B3 requirement for detergency.
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Old 09-26-2007, 10:26 AM
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Thanks for all of the help Charles. Your contribution to this board is invaluable and very much appreciated.

I finally made a decision and ordered 2 cases of Brad Penn from a distributor in Nashville. It cost $34/case of 12 and $17.50 shipping via UPS. Much cheaper then the $140 Napa charges for a case of Royal Purple Max Cycle.

Here is the contact info if anyone is interested:
Kimbro Oil (Michael Cameron) 615-320-7484
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Old 09-26-2007, 05:02 PM
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The local air cooled shop pushes Cen-Pe-Co oil for use in Porsches, VWs, Corvairs, etc. I know it's used very heavily in tractors. Is there any actual info on it? Has anyone ever tried it? It would be nice if it was good because it is very easy for me to get.
http://www.cen-pe-co.com/
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Old 09-26-2007, 06:29 PM
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I am getting confused, common for me. Charles, is the Royal Purple "high performance" 20/50 meet your standards or only the MC max cycle 20/50?

Cheers
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Old 09-26-2007, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cnavarro View Post
On a slightly different note, does anyone have old copies of the Porsche approved oil list, something before the latest revision from '03 or '04? I wanted something say, from the early to late 90s.
Have you found any recent literature (SAE, etc.) described the current level of Zn & P to be a problem anywhere else other than during engine break-in? I've been keeping my eyes open but haven't come across anything.

Below is the USA oil "suggested" list from 1992. I'll look around and see if I can't find the worldwide approved list or whatever the equivalent was at the time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Engine Lubrication - Oils That Minimize Carbon Build-Up

9219porsche01
Model
All

Part Identifier
1700

Group
1

Number
9207

April 17, 1992
Subject:
Engine Oils that Minimize
Carbon Build-up





ATTENTION:
Service Manager/Service Technician

This bulletin supersedes Technical Bulletin Group 1, Number 8905, Book F, pages 35 - 36.
Models Affected:
All

Concern:
Cars operated in certain areas of the U.S. are more prone to carbon formation on the intake valves than in others.

General Information:
The following engine oils have been tested and found to contribute less to this carbon build-up. Use of one of these oils may prove helpful in cars operated in these areas of the country.

Last edited by JasonAndreas; 09-27-2007 at 02:11 AM..
Old 09-27-2007, 02:02 AM
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I have many current SAE journals that link Zn and P levels and wear rates AFTER break-in, and more than just one. I purchased more yesterday - about another dozen or two SAE and NASA technical journals on oils, aluminum alloys, dimple formation, etc. Expensive, but good reading.

A well known 356 racer just had his cam and lifters go bad after switching to the newest SM rated VR-1 after running out of his old stock. The cam and lifters had three years of use and were just inspected before the failure, and were like new. I have more examples too.

The only Royal Purple oils I have used and recommend for an aircooled engine are the Max Cycle line, as it has the most Zn and P. The Racing series would probably work in a pinch too, but aren't as good IMHO. The "street" high performance 20w50 is marginal.

Jason, was that an Alldata or API tech bulletin or something Porsche sent? Thanks for posting it.
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Old 09-27-2007, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by cnavarro View Post
Well, both the W8 and V10 TDI engines have 12 quart wet sumps; both have 10,000 mi intervals according to the dealer, if not even longer - I have seen european specs say evn 15,000 mi.
A couple of things should be noted here relative to longer drain intervals.

1) The 12 qt sump has a lot to do with the car's ability to go 10000 -15000 miles on one fill of oil. Why? It simply takes longer to deplete the additives when there is that much fresh oil coming in contact with a fixed amount of combustion by products.

2) Any time extended drains are employed, a new filter and used oil analysis at 1/2 of the interval should be performed. The UOA confirms the oil is suitable for continued use. Secondly the new filter helps to ensure that you are not trying to filter good oil with a dirty filter. Finally the extra quart that one adds with the new filter gives the additive package a little boost.

I am a huge proponent of extended drains as a means to get more value out of expensive oil and as a means to reduce our dependency on foreign oil. However, one should never run 10000, 15000, 25000 miles on a batch of oil simply because the label or the manufacturer says you can.

Don
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Old 09-27-2007, 04:53 AM
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As far as the Cen-pe-co oil, I don't doubt it's good stuff, but they really don't have any information anywhere other than it is a highly refined paraffinic base stock, like the Brad Penn and Swepco. I did find a bottle that showed API SJ, just like Brad Penn too. I'd like to get some of it here to have it tested or find someone who has already. I'd be willing to bet it is good stuff too, but looks very hard to get or locate.
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Old 09-27-2007, 04:57 AM
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Amen Don. For the first time ever, I'm going to do a UOA on both my VWs - I have the sampling pump from Staveley and will use it to determine my drain intervals accordingly now, since both engines should be stabilized and well-broken in. Once everyone chooses an oil, everyone should test their oil to see really how it holds up to determine their drain intervals if you put on decent mileage. I'd still change it based on time on cars that just don't get driven often enough.

The next question of the century is, when do you decide to drain it out, since I'm assuming the Zn and P levels shown do not account for the decomposition byproducts in the oil which still are performing the wear protection?
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Old 09-27-2007, 05:01 AM
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re. change intervals and oil testing... my situation is that I drive to work about 7 miles one way...in the winter the oil doesn't get very hot for long, even in the summer that's also true....
if I send in a sample to Blackstone or another place will the results show time to change or not? What is the "key" attribute that will show up as "bad" from the oil test when driving short distances? I'm thinking to go 1 year and then change oil and filter.... after reading all of the above that may be pushing it a bit. Of course there are a number of times when I do heat the oil up, e.g. traveling to the track or AX and driving over to Santa Cruz.
Old 09-27-2007, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by cnavarro View Post

The next question of the century is, when do you decide to drain it out, since I'm assuming the Zn and P levels shown do not account for the decomposition byproducts in the oil which still are performing the wear protection?
On cars under warranty, drain when the owners manual says to drain. Period.

For other cars, the oil analysis will tell you when it is time. Some folks say when the TBN drops below 1/2 of the starting point. The labs say when TBN gets below 2 (considering many over the counter oils start at 4-6 this makes sense)

The Zn and P are simply part of the additive package and usually stay high as other additives deplete.

I have done a fair amount of exteded drain testing in my own cars and ran one 200,000 mile BMW over 26000 miles on one batch of Amsoil (albeit enhanced by no less than 4 filter changes and top up). Not only did the TBN drop fairly quickly after 20000, the wear metals began to creep up.

Once you do a few oil analyses on specific vehicles, you'll see a pattern develop. With this data you can choose a drain interval that suits your car and your oil. After that, you really only need to spot check oil analysis to verify that the results remain the same.

Don
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Old 09-27-2007, 05:21 AM
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I like that - change at 1/2 of the original TBN.

The reason I asked about the Zn and P, was that we did some road testing of various oils, and Castrol GTX, in 800 mi (5 qt capacity, aircooled engine w/m1 filter, full flow), used up about 35% of the Zn and P, where the other oils were in the same time frame and same engine, using up 10-15%.
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Old 09-27-2007, 05:33 AM
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Short drives are the worst, but as long as you take a long drive and get the oil nice and hot at least once a week, you will get the moisture out of the oil, which is the big problem.
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Old 09-27-2007, 05:42 AM
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Charles,
Thanks... that's what I was afraid of.... I guess I need to rethink the 1 year interval. I could be better off going for an oil that is toward the less expensive side and still meets your criteria and change every 6 months. There are just too many times where I might not really heat the engine up for weeks at a time.
Also, just to confirm what you and maybe others have said... can I switch from the "OEM" filter to the Mobil 1 filter with confidence? Is there only one part number that "fits" my 89 3.2 car?
Thanks again,
-Henry
Old 09-27-2007, 06:04 AM
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I have no doubt in my mind that the Mobil 1 or K&N Gold filter is a better filter than the OE (both are made by Champion). In a pinch, I'd even settle for a Napa Gold or Wix filter, as I have found both to be of even better construction than Mahle or Mann filters.
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Old 09-27-2007, 06:08 AM
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The correct Mobil 1 branded filter is Mobil 1 Model M1-404, for all years up to a 89 3.2. I'm not sure they actually make the right filter for the 3.6 964 and later vehicles.
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Old 09-27-2007, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagledriver View Post
Has anyone tested the new Mobil 1 15-50? It claims to have increased levels of anti wear ingredients for older/high performance engines. It's in a plain bottle now, no Extended Performance or any other descriptive comments on it.
Charles,

Not to be redundant, but I'd like to know the answer to this as well and I'm not sure from the information posted to date. I understand that the M1 15W50 Extended Performance "Gold Cap" should be avoided.

The reformulated or reintroduced Mobil 1 with the "Silver Cap" info shown here:

http://mobil1.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_15W-50_.aspx

(1) Does this non EP, "Silver Cap" M1 15W50 contain adequate ZDDP levels?

(2) Is this reintroduced "Silver Cap" M1 15W50 essentially the same as the old "Red Cap" M1 15W50 that was discontinued a few years ago?


Tim
Old 09-27-2007, 07:05 AM
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