Can you (temporarily) tube a tire?

Danny_Ocean · 10:14 PM

I am frustrated to wits end.

I cannot, after visiting 3 regular (and specialty) tire shops, + one Porsche race-prep shop, get my F/R 3-piece O.Z wheel to seal at the outer tire bead. The shops have cleaned the wheel and applied "black death", which works for about 3 days. After that....pfffft.

It will be a few months before I am ready to order new wheels (Kodiaks!), but I need to drive/move this car occasionally. I do not participate in track days nor do I race around...mostly speed-limit cruising (35 ~ 45mph).

Can I put a tube in it temporarily? Wheels are 8.5 x 18. Tires are 245/40-18.

P.S. - What are the chances my problem lies with the tire and not the rim?

mkossler · 09-16-2007, 05:11 AM

Based on your statement regarding the outer bead, I will assume that you have seen the wheel/tire in a bath and witnessed the bubbles being produced. I say that because the first place I would look for a leak on that wheel would be the center-to-hub fasteners. The second would be the metal valve stem that I'll bet you have in the wheel. The valve stem gasket often has a hard time sealing the area between the flat bottom of the valve stem and the concave radius of the wheel.

I have also seen cases where an issue with the chafer plies around the bead, such as minor chips or tears, and bends or kinks in the bead bundle (the interior wires in the tire bead area) will prevent a positive seal. This will generally manifest itself as localized bubbling when leak testing. If you see a local leak issue, determine if the tire is causing the leaking: Mark the wheel and tire at the point at which you see the leak. Then, empty the tire and break the bead seal. Rotate the tire and re-seat. Re-test for leak. Whichever mark still has the leak, you've got your culprit.

OZ's quality control was, in my experience, among the best. That said, nobody is perfect. I would be looking very carefully for localized leaking (look for the "rising column" in a bath, don't just spray with soapy water), I would mark the tire and wheel separately, then I would very carefully inspect both for irregularities. There is no such thing as "just one of those things". Something is out-of-spec.

FWIW, I have never found the use of additional tire bead sealants to be an effective cure for a bead leak. If I could not cure the problem without sealant, I would replace the tire or wheel.

mkossler · 09-16-2007, 05:19 AM

Oh your question. D'oh!

The answer is yes, but I'd recommend against any spirited driving while the tire was tubed:

- You will need to install a wheel liner to prevent puncturing the tube.
- The wheel will likely require heavier weights to properly balance.
- You will need a long (rubber) valve stem on the tube, and must be very careful that the valve stem hole has no sharp edges that could cut the stem.
- The performance rating of the tire will be affected due to increased heat.

Danny_Ocean · 09-16-2007, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkossler

Based on your statement regarding the outer bead, I will assume that you have seen the wheel/tire in a bath and witnessed the bubbles being produced. I say that because the first place I would look for a leak on that wheel would be the center-to-hub fasteners. The second would be the metal valve stem that I'll bet you have in the wheel. The valve stem gasket often has a hard time sealing the area between the flat bottom of the valve stem and the concave radius of the wheel.

It's definitely the bead. I have had the tire tanked (and you can hear/feel the air leaking past the bead). The valve stems have been replaced 3 times.

Your last statement was "I would replace the tire or the wheel". Replacing the tire is inexpensive. Replacing the wheel is impossible. These haven't been made in years. I'd have to buy a complete set ($1900+). Is there a way to know for sure it's the tire? There are about 3 locations along the bead that are leaking.

stomachmonkey · 09-16-2007, 06:18 AM

Take the wheel from the other side and swap the tires. If leaks move to the new rim it's the tire. Or just have the tire shop throw on a new tire and see if it leaks.

mkossler · 09-16-2007, 06:21 AM

Test in the bath. Look for columns of bubbles. Mark the wheel/tire at the leaks, then rotate the tire on the wheel. Re-seat and retest. See if the leaks are at the wheel marks, or the tire marks. There's your answer. Leaks at Wheel Marks=wheel issue, Tire Marks = tire issue.

porsche930dude · porsche930dude's Garage

I find that smacking the tire with a rubber mallet often seals the area. Also i find it hard to beleive that the black tire sealent you mentioned does not work. They must have not used enough of it. Iv sealed tires with beads that had 4 inch chunks out of them and had 1/4 inch to seal against. Have you tried slime or other such products in the tire? Iv had great sucess with that sealing dry rot cracks and such. I would Not use a tube. Thats just begging for even more frustration

Danny_Ocean · 09-16-2007, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by porsche930dude

I find that smacking the tire with a rubber mallet often seals the area. Also i find it hard to beleive that the black tire sealent you mentioned does not work. They must have not used enough of it. Iv sealed tires with beads that had 4 inch chunks out of them and had 1/4 inch to seal against. Have you tried slime or other such products in the tire? Iv had great sucess with that sealing dry rot cracks and such. I would Not use a tube. Thats just begging for even more frustration

Yes, they've tried the black goo and it works initially. Then after a week of sitting, pfffft. The last place I had look at it (Porsche race-prep shop), they indicated the black stuff hadn't cured long enough, so they let the tire sit for two days (and I gave it a few more days before mounting. Held great for 4 days then....

I tried Slime, I tried Fix-A-Flat...

I'll try swapping the tires, but this is just adding up. Everytime I bring it in, I'm paying for a mount/balance (plus add'l labor)! I could be well on my way to the new Kinesis wheels by now.

porsche930dude · porsche930dude's Garage

Thats crazy Id just say f### it and fill it up whenever it needs it till you get the new wheels

Danny_Ocean · 09-17-2007, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by porsche930dude

Thats crazy Id just say f### it and fill it up whenever it needs it till you get the new wheels

Nah. It used to stay inflated for 2 ~ 3 days. Now it won't hold air for more than 20 mins.

klaucke · 09-17-2007, 06:47 PM

Tube seems like the simple, easy solution that is guaranteed to work.

Norm Faustino · Norm Faustino's Garage

Maybe It's the angle I'm looking from, but it seems from the reflection around the outer ring, the wheel has a flat spot. has this wheel ever been repaired from damage? you might have an out of round wheel or an irregular contour condition on the inside lip of the wheel. If such a condition exists, you will never get it to seal up completely.

Try using a contour gage from harbor freight to determine if you have the same contour all the way around.

Just my $.02

Kevin Stewart · 09-17-2007, 07:52 PM

A bead typicaly will not leak unless there is one of a couple issues, 1st the bead could be tore, common with discount tire etc with kids doing work, 2nd cracked lip or crusty bead lip on the wheel.

Ok lets go further, I have seen on many occasions three piece wheels leaking at a bolt or seal and it appears to be the lip, The cause is usually the guy who dismounted the tire for a repair or new tire jammed the tire tool on the silicon bead that keeps the wheel from leaking and puts a u shaped cut or some guys just tear it all to heck, tore seal equals dissassemble wheel reseal. Most cheap tire stores like Discount and gas stations will NOT ADMIT they damaged the wheel and will even say something like the lip is leaking to get you to go away.

easy was to test get a spray bottle put dish soap in it and squirt the wheel down it will bubble and you will be able to find the leak better then a dunk tank.

and if it is the lip they will need to take a power wheel to get all the junk off like a wire wheel. Good luck, Kevin