How many out there spun your car not following the "no lift" rule?
 

I have heard about this and respect the rule as it makes sense. We all know these cars inspire confidence while cornering but I wonder how far do you have to push it to lose the back end or maybe if someone can describe the "no lift" more. It still must be the correct way to enter a corner, by loading the front tires with braking and then entering the turn? Is the no lift specifically in mid corner?
I have not felt the back end loose from being light on dry pavement but I have had the pleasure on wet autocross course.

I lost it on turn 2 (yeah, yeah... turn 2?) on Big Willow. Granted, I was playing around with throttle steering that whole session. BTW... it was the last session of the day and were only a couple other cars on the track.... keeping it relatively safe.

Anyway... I was doing about 80 when it got away from me. Tires were pretty slippery after nudging the tail out for that session AFTER running the full day on the track.

2 feet in and HOLD ON!

I think where most people get into trouble is freaking out mid-corner and completely lifting off the gas. A guy I work with wrapped a customer's 912 around a pole doing that. Oops.

I have on the track at Gingerman, turn three by the big tree. Pushing a little too much on anopen track day and oops, right backwards into the grass. No harm done and it was actually nice to get it out of the way. I don't drive fast enough on the street to do this.

So you think, once you do it you'll now know where that limit is?

That's the whole idea behind "more seat time". Unless you have Michael Schumacher genes in your blood, I don't think once is *quite* enough...

Hmmm... more like once you do it, you'll know what it feels like when it starts to let go. The limit is sort of dependent upon a lot of conditions. The more you drive, the more you'll "feel" the first stages of "the limit" in a variety of conditions (ex. tire wear and stickiness, track/road conditions, speed, arch of the turn, etc.)

You need to get on a skid pad and also do some AX. You don't want to feel the car come around on a high speed track with armco close by.
You should pick up Vic Elford's book on high performance driving. He explains things well about braking, cornering, weight transfer and everything you should know as basics for driving within your limit.

the best thing is until you figure out what that point is (through driver ed and autoX) only break in a straight line, and then get back to feathering the throttle. Eventually you will develop the necessary balance. In my experience there are too many variable to be able to describe and then have someone try to do it first time out. Good luck. You don't have to spin the car to find out what that point is.

There are stories of early 911 drivers trail braking late into corners - I read them to my kids at night sometimes. It starts with "Once apon a time..." and ends with "they all lived happily ever after".

I did it in my old beetle.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/lol2.gif

The "no-lift" is preached to beginer drivers while they learn car control. As you advance and become a better driver, there are some instances where a bit of "lift" can be helpful.

You can turn in, lift, rotate the car (slide the rear), and get back on the gas. You are steering the car with both the steering wheel, and gas pedal.

A wet skid pad is a great place to learn how to control lift throttle oversteer. Do it long enough and it becomes a subconcious part of your driving skill set. You will pull out this trick on certain corners. Other corners may take more traditional brake>turn>gas methods.

Again as a novice track driver you should follow the "no-lift" tenet

Wider tires and a l/s diff allows trail braking at rediculious limits. It doesn't however solve signifigant mid corner throttle lift.

Take your car to a Driver's clinic that uses a skid pad and you'll really learn your car's limits and handling tendencies and what it feels like to understeer and oversteer at will.

Using judicious bits of lift during cornering to transfer weight in the rear and tighten up your apex results in a driving experience more fun than a barrel of lesbians. However, I don't know any other way of learning this technique than completely losing the car at least once, either on purpose or by losing control of the car.

My first time was less than 20mph and after I'd had my first 911 just a few weeks. I was rounding a right hand turn late at night with zero traffic and hit a bit of black ice. The arse just came rotating around quick as you please, and when the dust cleared I was in the grass. My then-girlfriend and I just blinked at each other and got back on the road.

One time the car got away from me and the ass came around. This was in a more dire situation with a lot more traffic and a LOT more speed. The ass was coming around on my left - I steered left and floored it. 99% luck and 1% skill, I salvaged it and didn't kill anybody.

Prove it! Send me the barrel.

done it at autocrosses, more than once. never on the street, though.

IMO, the limit is quite high. if you are getting off-throttle oversteer on the street, you are driving way too fast.

Simply put, that's the bottom line.

I spun it on the Nurburgring a few weeks ago (God I enjoyed typing that!)

I was carrying too much speed round a fast corner and new a hairpin was coming up - I braked. By the time I knew I couldn't catch it I also knew I wasn't going to hit anything. Laughed my head of, switched the wipers off, and set off again. Had to calm myself down after a few minutes though.

The bottom line is I was going too fast. Even so I should have accelerated slightly and straighten the car before then braking.

It's good on the ring because there are so many corners you get used to braking before the bend and accelerating (just enough to balance the car) the whole of the way round (then flooring it as you see the exit) - you can feel the car settle into the corner, and just drifting slightly through the bend but because you're accelerating it feels very steady - beautifully balanced and controlled.

Had a great time learning more and more about the car and just starting to appreciate why they are so good.

Would I be able to avoid doing it again? Never say never, but it was certainly a help in recognising the signs. The bottom line as I say is that on that corner and on that line I was going too fast, and this time just braking was the wrong option.

Cheers

Mark

I've only spun a few times and its always been from getting on the gas too soon. Back end breaks loose and I go mowing the lawn...lucliky no walls involved to-date.

I 2nd the skid pad drills. It will really show you the breaking point of your car.

This is how I corner in my f stock 911 on a normal turn. I brake in a straight line. Turn in and have my foot resting on the accelerator (to throttle steer if necessary). By apex I am on the gas (more times then not full throttle) and opening up the steering wheel to track out.

It is when you carry to much sped into a corner is when you have the want to lift to slow down. Then the back end steeps out and wants to come around. That is why you always want to get your breaking done before turn in. Thus the phrase slow in fast out. As everyone stated before Seat time is the best cure.

I lift.

It's a very effective tool for driving a 911. The trick is to lift on purpose, know how (and how fast) the car will react, and how to catch it.

There are three versions of "Lifting".

1- "Lifting": To purposely lift to use the handling characteristics to help you go faster through a corner like Capt. Carrera mentioned.

2- "Sissy Lifting": Thats lifting when you think your skirt might not handle the speed of the turn. (Usually comes after performing a #3 "lift" at a certain section of the track, but can come on at any time)

3- "OHH $hiT Lifting": This usually applies when you get heckled by your racing buddies, or from false info they provide like "I go through turn 9 floored, You don't???" Then you try it.....Weeeeeeeee.... After this type of "Lifting" you revert back to #2 version for half of the day.

I'm I guilty of all of the above :)

Like my reminder?http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1190475630.jpg

I spun my car within the first hour of owning it. It was late at night on a highway in California. The tires were old and hard. Like an idiot I let my enthusiasm for my first Porsche get the better of me. I came around a decreasing radius corner, panicked, lifted and promptly lost it. Spun into the oncoming lane with no one in sight. I gathered myself up and behaved for the next couple of thousand miles until I got to my first DE day. Proper instruction and many DE days since have mad eme a much better driver. An explanation of vehicle dynamics really helped me a lot.

Learning to squeeze the throttle slowly rather than abruptly coming on and off will reduce the likelihood of unwanted oversteer. There's no substitute for AutoX and DE days.

Spun twice at the track, first one I knew I was carrying too much speed into the corner and ran out of breaking room. Couldn't save it after turn it. Second time was took much throttle out of a corner, both times nothing around to hit. I haven't spun due to lift yet, but it's hard to break the habit of not lifting when starting to spin, it's just as hard ( as I have found) to give it more gas, and just the right amount. Man these cars are fun!

Was pushing the limits on my '72 model on a wet road and had it happen. You have to find the limits and I did...

I have sooooo much to experience!

The most perfect explanation I have ever heard.

I did it with my dad’s ’66 912 in the fall of ’65. Didn’t hurt anything but lesson learned. I did it a few times with my then new ’68 911 in the spring of ’68. More lessons learned. Eventually it resulted in the PCA DE “Grady Clay School of Sideways Driving.” Great fun. Ask any of my students, many who still have white knuckles from the experience. My passenger vent window post is permanently deformed.

A fun story is I went with some friends to Bondurant at Sears in about '73. One of his instructors (a formula car driver) asked to drive my 911. I admonished him that he 'should not lift' as it creates oversteer. After two 'thumbs up' laps he failed to appear. Pretty soon he came in with a very 'sheepish' attitude and 'white knuckle's'.:eek::eek: Fortunately no damage. :)

Best,
Grady

I believe I have a pretty good understanding of lift oversteer in general but I wondered how different it would be in my 911.
I've done a fair share of autox and I think a have a basic knowledge of handling dynamics. I used to have a (don't laugh):p Hyundai Tiburon, which I had a lot of fun with. On this particular turn going home I could gas it on a short straight, quick turn in and then lift and I could drift that little Tiburon (front drive) around that turn. I did spin it once. Please don't flame me about keeping it on the track, thank you.
Anyway, I invisioned that the "no lift" rule was because if you dare lifted in the middle of a corner in a 911 the back end was coming around and that's that, and there would be no saving it. But what I'm hearing is that there is a more gray and not so black and white with these cars.

My version of watching out for "lifting" has turned into "paying attention to how each end is planted". The gas pedal is the tool that controls if it is the front or rear end of the car that 'steps out'. If you treat it a bit more like a steering wheel you will be constantly adjusting it without thinking about it. You really need to feel how quickly the car is rotating around its axis. When it starts to rotate more then you intended you should immediately be doing something about it. You really NEED to control the rotational torque of the car. If you get the car rotating about its axis you have to apply some sort of force to slow down (or stop) the rotation (NOW!). You can do some of it with the steering wheel but the gas pedal is more important.

Spins themselves have all really come from not following the "slow down to the point where there is some possibility of the laws of physics allowing the car to somehow make it around the corner" rule!
If you have overcooked a corner letting the car step out about 30 degrees is a great way to scrub off extra speed while still generating cornering force. This is a particularly nice thing to have up your sleeve when running through a downhill corner. If you get going too fast you can't hit the brake to slow down but you can scrub some of the speed off!


Fun story for Grady:
When I first got my car it had really excessive oversteer and would step out really viciously. Our region's Auto-X director Lars was this character that would tell funny stories in a thick German accent as he flogged cars through a course. The really funny part was the pace of the story always completely ignored the pace of what was happening outside the car...

On this one day kept telling me "you must finish braking before you turn into the corner and be somewhat on the gas by the time you are in the middle of the corner". I told him that I really felt that I was already doing that. Finally he said he would drive the car once to show me.

We got half way through the course and the car bites him hard. We are going 90° sideways and Lars is still looking straight out the front of the windshield instead of looking out the side window in the direction we are going and exclaims, "Oh! It is quite a handful isn't it!"

After that run I decided I really needed to look at the suspension. Cranking in max rear camber really brought the car to life.

Learning how to save it is one of the rewards of becoming a better skilled 911 driver:

Lift, the rear starts to rotate. then back on the gas, hooks the car up and off you go.

Judging how much to let the car slide, and when to apply power takes seat time. In some turns this technique isn't required

I haven't in the Pcar. I did spin a couple times in just a few laps in an old Toyota Atlanic car. It gives a whole new meaning to off throttle oversteer. It was in the same turn and I was fighting the tiny shifter both times :D.

Me?? I never lift my throttle in a curve....:D
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1193399980.jpg

since in off road racing your A$$ is always loose, no matter a buggy/bike/truck the principles are the same for the street or track.

straight line braking before turn( i mean throw the anchor out braking!), turn in, hit apex and then hammer it! be it dirt or pavement be ready next to counter cars motion to spin outward right or left. usually by feathering throttle.

since 1/2 1600 score cars and many "1" cars are rear engined its obvious to all around that either sooner or later you will break a$$ end loose at the worst time. but on the dirt unless your in first place usually a berm has been built up by others that usually keeps you in line despite A$$ end wanting to wander.

on the street or track you dont have that luxury of a berm kinda keeping you in place.

never so happy to pop my cherry and spin mine. it was like a dark cloud hanging over me. as a kid saw lots of wrecked p-cars come into johnson-bozzani body shop. every time we would ask what happened as we stared in horror at the damage. and as usual we would get the same answer from body shop mgr. "dumb-a$$ didnt know how to drive!"

well after ditching my stock dunlops and fuchs and going to 7 and 9's with yoko es 100's i thought i was invincible at the track. had already ran the snot out of the dunlops 3 times at PIR. so i thought i was hot SH!! with the new yoko's at firebird. 3rd lap on a left hander decided to cut it low low left and hug white line and then it happened...................faster than you can blink my a$$ end is going right! apply both feet in equation and hang on. did 180 facing traffic. along come jeff(cul8r) and lee h honking their horns approving highly of my driving skill and all of us laughing!

after coming into pits things unfolded. first new tires, second cold track, third tires not hot enough, 4th approach to left hand corner. i never lifted throttle and had straight line braked and down shifted. but general tire conditions and angle of dangle were against me. lesson learned: heat those tires up before hauling a$$!

now with that in mind we then layed out big bucks for michelin pilot sport cups.

NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENCE!

at california motor speedway we would start from turn 4 to turn one top of 5th gear (MEGA WFO WARP SPEED/ALL SHE HAD!) and never brake or downshift going low , going middle, going high on banked turns 1 and 2!

there is no way in hell any street tire would EVER ALLOW YOU to do that!

applied same technique at CMF, hard straightline braking throw the anchor out, down shift, and then do your turn in, hit apex, AND THEN HAMMER IT out the rest of corner. this worked for FIVE (5) time trials and NEVER A SPIN or even a popcorn fart in my firesuit. all the while with 42 other cars trying to kill us!

we also had the tire pressures set up perfectly for doing high speed banked left handers. nothing special about car, just PCA showroom stock "F" class. only variable was it was perfectly setup for that track. unreal handling can be achieved and it WILL ******* AMAZE YOU!