early 69-74 track car suspension recommedations needed

[MJHanna]

Looking for full track car suspension recommedations, Smart Racing says use 23 mm frt t bars and 30 mm rear t bar. But a lot of local tuners are sayin go as heavy in the rear as you can get to fit?

[RWebb]

1. what track(s)?
2. what driver level?
3. what preferences?

[Steve@Rennsport]

MJ:

The decision about what to use depends on many things such as:

1) Vehicle weight

2) Wheel/tire package

3) Engine power

4) Aero package, if any

5) Driver skills, experience, and preferences (this is a biggie!)

6) Racing rules for the class, if applicable


The answer to those questions will frame what you use,......

[MJHanna]

Originally Posted by Steve@Rennsport

MJ:

The decision about what to use depends on many things such as:

1) Vehicle weight

2) Wheel/tire package

3) Engine power

4) Aero package, if any

5) Driver skills, experience, and preferences (this is a biggie!)

6) Racing rules for the class, if applicable


The answer to those questions will frame what you use,......

MJ:

The decision about what to use depends on many things such as:

1) Vehicle weight 2090 LBS

2) Wheel/tire package 7 " 225 X 50X 15 R Comp

3) Engine power 2.2 S stock eng with headers est 190hp

4) Aero package, if any: none allowed

5) Driver skills, experience, and preferences (this is a biggie!) use to very stiff suspension, like to throttle steer, 25 + years on the track, PCA instructor,

6) Racing rules for the class, if applicable vintage can't put any bigger tires ect.


currrently stock 69 S with poly bushings a litttle bigger rear torsion bar the rest is stock. It feels like I'm driveing a Buick there is so much body roll I can't put full power down in some corners or it starts to break lose. This car does not "dance"

[MJHanna]

current settings are:Front Suspension
· Original stock torsion bars (19mm)
· Original sway bar
· Custom-fabricated, adjustable sway bar links
· Weltmeister urethane control arm bushings
· Turbo tie rods
· Steering rack bump steer spacers
· Upper strut bushings replaced with spherical bearings
· Strut-top bearings offset in custom-fabricated mounts to allow increased camber settings
· Each upper strut tied to opposite side with custom-fabricated CrMo adjustable camber bars
· Koni shock inserts

Rear Suspension
· Torsion bars from later car (26mm)
· Original sway bar
· Reinforced sway bar mounts
· Original steel trailing arms modified to allow increased camber/toe settings
· Adjustment screws replace eccentrics on trailing arms for alignment
· Weltmeister urethane spring plate bushings
· Bilstein shocks

[Vintage911Racer]

front

23 mm torsion bars
21mm Sway bar
Bilstien Sports

Rear
31 mm Torsion bar
21 mm sway bar
Bisltiens Sports

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Last issue of Excellence has a great article on the Plavan family with full specs given for each of their cars. Good info to consider.

On my 69E, I'm putting together:
22/28s
Front Charlie bar
Rear Tarrett
Bilsteins revalved to the bars F&R
Elephant Racing bearings
6x7x15 205/225 SO3's
S front brakes
S front bumper

considering seam welding the tub this winter since I've missed my chance at paint.

[MJHanna]

Originally Posted by Vintage911Racer

front

23 mm torsion bars
21mm Sway bar
Bilstien Sports

Rear
31 mm Torsion bar
21 mm sway bar
Bisltiens Sports

Mark you started with Konis, is there that much diffrence in going with the Bilstiens? I really struggle to get rid of the Koni struts...

[Eagledriver]

I think Koni's are probably ok. The reason to go with Bilstein in front is to raise the spindles. If the Koni's are valved to match the torsion bars then they are probably just as good. A big reason that most of use use Bilstein is that we copy each others valving and don't know how to translate that to Koni.

-Andy

[Steve@Rennsport]

Hi Andy:

Some of us use our own valving that works pretty well,....

I would mention that the ability to raise front spindles is IMHO, a biggie. This does several things such as restoring lost shock travel when the car is lowered and raising the front roll center back up to reduce front lateral weight transfer and help keep the inside front wheels from lifting in a corner.

Koni shock shafts can be shortened a bit but that doesn't address the roll center problems when these cars get lowered to handle better.

[Fishcop]

Steve, can a modification be make to Koni struts to accept Bilsteins cartridges?

[obrut]

front

23 mm torsion bars
21mm Sway bar
Bilstien Sports

Rear
31 mm Torsion bar
21 mm sway bar
Bisltiens Sports

mark,

are you using adjustable or fixed sway bars? (i'm setting up a 69E for historics racing in oz and adjustable sways are not allowed)

i also have to run 6" rims with 205/60 all round.

[MJHanna]

Originally Posted by obrut

front

23 mm torsion bars
21mm Sway bar
Bilstien Sports

Rear
31 mm Torsion bar
21 mm sway bar
Bisltiens Sports

mark,

are you using adjustable or fixed sway bars? (i'm setting up a 69E for historics racing in oz and adjustable sways are not allowed)

i also have to run 6" rims with 205/60 all round.

we are allowed Adjustable sway bars and can go to a 7" rim

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by Fishcop

Steve, can a modification be make to Koni struts to accept Bilsteins cartridges?

Hi John:

As you might know, Bilstein used to make a cartridge for Koni struts but those are long out of production.

Bilstein makes two families of front inserts: "upside down" ones for Bilstein struts and replacements for Boge's. The latter ones MIGHT be able to be modified if the securing threads at the retaining collar are the same. I have not tried this since we don't use any Koni products.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by MJHanna

currrently stock 69 S with poly bushings a litttle bigger rear torsion bar the rest is stock. It feels like I'm driveing a Buick there is so much body roll I can't put full power down in some corners or it starts to break lose. This car does not "dance"

Depending on your budget, I would:

1) 23/30mm torsion bars.

2) Double-adjustable shocks (JRZ or Moton). These are a 2-5 sec/lap improvement over the best custom-valved Bilsteins.

3) 23mm adjustable swaybars; F & R. Make sure you have the Wevo rear swaybar consoles.

4) ER's Poly-bronze front A-arm and rear spring plate bushings. Adjustable spring plates are really nice for precision corner-weighting.

Of course, one assumes that you have a Turbo tie rod kit and a front strut brace of some kind.

If these components are installed, setup, and adjusted correctly with the right alignment settings for the tires you'll be using, the only possible weak area would be the driver,....

[MJHanna]

[QUOTE=Steve@Rennsport;3516971]Depending on your budget, I would:

) Double-adjustable shocks (JRZ or Moton). These are a 2-5 sec/lap improvement over the best custom-valved Bilsteins.

the only possible weak area would be the driver,.... [/QUOTE

Will the Koni struts work with the JRZ or Montons or do I still need to go to Bilstiens for these shocks ? If I have to do the Bilsteins do I go ahead and raise the spindles as long as I'm doing it. ? I want to do this once and be done with it. So that I can have no excuses and the the problem is the loose nut behind the wheel.

[Steve@Rennsport]

JRZ's and Moton's use their own struts & shocks. These REPLACE Koni's or Bilsteins,..

Both are double-adjustable racing shocks and can be made with additional camber built into the spindles as well as having the spindles placed wherever you want, depending on wheel diameter.

Neither are cheap, but you get what you pay for.

[pieterk]

Very interesting Steve. I never realized that Moton or JRZ actually made shocks/struts that let you retain the A-arms and torsion bars. I was always under the impression that the only way to use either of those was by going to a full coilover system.

Do you have any photos of these by any chance?

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Steve@Rennsport

JRZ's and Moton's use their own struts & shocks. These REPLACE Koni's or Bilsteins,..

how would you compare these to Fox?

[Steve@Rennsport]

Hi Pieter:

LOL,..We've been using both JRZ's and Motons for over 12 years on 911's while retaining the torsion bar setup. It has to be felt to be believed how good it is,.......

I don't have any pictures at the moment, but they install just like a Bilstein except for mounting the remote cannisters. JRZ has a new shock called the RS that has integral cannisters so thats not a concern.


Shaun:

IMHO, while Fox shocks are very good, they simply do not compare to Moton or JRZ's as those are in another league.