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Brake Job - Frustration...

Hello all!

I'm smack-dab in the middle of performing a complete brake job and ran into a few frustrating issues. I have a '78 911SC.

Here is what I want to do...

- Replace pads (F/R)
- Replace rotors (F/R)
- Replace lines (F/R)
- Fresh fluid
- Inspect and repack front bearings (I have new seals)
- Clean and normalize everything related

Two Problems:

1.) I'm unable to remove the front grease cap "thing" off the front hub. Gray book says to remove gently... Yeah! What am I missing? If and when I do finally get the cap off; do you really need it? I'm so frustrated with this!

2.) I had not planned on rebuilding my calipers...per numerous recommendations from this forum - no need Tom! However, upon inspection, I found the rubber bladder things surrounding the pistons to be torn/smashed etc... Does this warrant a rebuild? What should I do? Do I need this rubber? Its not like my brakes were not working...

At this point I am thinking my pCar is not coming down off those jack stands by Monday...(daily driver). I'm gonna take a shower and gulp a few cold-ones... My hands hurt and I'm pissed!

Any insights and recommendations would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!

Mahalo!

Tom

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Old 09-15-2007, 09:15 PM
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The bearing cap in front keeps dirt/etc. out of the bearings, you DO need it.
They get rusty over the years and are hard to remove. Try a rubber mallet, hitting from an angle, also can spray the joint with PB rust remover .

If the caliper seals at the pistons are cracked they SHOULD be replaced. Same as the metal cap, the seals keep road dirt/debris out of the piston caliper bore. They usually begin leaking soon after they split.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:25 PM
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For the grease caps get the biggest channel locks you can find. And I mean big. We are talking 20inch puppies here... Sometimes these caps are a pain to get off.

The caliper rebuild is not too difficult if you have access to compressed air. You need that to drive the pistons out. All it comprises is to push out the pistons, put new seals into the caliper bores and put a new dust boot on. If they don't leak you might as well just replace the dust boots. The kits are cheap. All they contain is the square cross-section seal and the dust boot.


If you decide to push out the piston and replace the seal there is a trick to make sure you get a hard pedal: You need to bleed the brakes properly, then pump the pistons out a little bit and install the pads while ever so slightly pushing the pistons back. It is sort of installing the pads "under load". I don't know how to better describe it. If you dont't do that the new seals will retain the pistons and prevent you from getting a good hard pedal. If you search the forum there are several threads talking about this.

Have fun and enjoy the cold ones.....
Ingo
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:34 PM
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Here's what worked for me:

I take a large cold chisel and a hammer. Put the chisel against the groove of the grease cap at an angle so the chisel side is towards you and the shaft is away from you. Give it two whacks, spin the wheel about a 1/4 turn and do it again. Keep going around until it comes off.

I found the same thing when I replaced my brake pads. The good news is that the caliper rebuild kits are $ 12 each and like Mo_Gearhead said above, if you have compressed air, the caliper rebuild is not a hard job to do at all.

Check out the Pelican Tech Articles section. There is a good write up in there. That's what I followed.
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Old 09-16-2007, 05:22 AM
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Removal of Dust Cap on Frt wheels bearings

check this thread. Everything you need to know is in the first few pictures.
If you have to order dust boots for the calipers and you need to drive the car Monday, I would put in the new rotors and pads, bleed and be set for Monday. Do the seals as soon as possible and take your time to do it right. All you will have to do then is remove the calipers and rebuild them then bleed again.
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Old 09-16-2007, 06:07 AM
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I agree with Tony... things should be fine for a short while driving with no or damaged boots. I've been driving without boots for a year. When I put in new boots and go to the track they burn up, so I've been leaving them off while I invent better brake cooling. When rebuilding calipers I used 800 wet/dry sand paper to burnish the pistons and used some caliper piston grease to reinstall. I think just a light coating of brake fluid is all that is needed however.
Old 09-16-2007, 07:21 AM
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one thing which can ruin your progress when reinstalling your front calipers is to mix them up, make sure the bleeder valve is at the TOP of the caliper, otherwise you'll waste a ton of time bleeding before you figure out why you can't get good pressure........ask me how I know

if all else fails a 2x4 and a big hammer will get the front caps off, sometimes they need to be really persuaded, if you deform it you can smack it back into shape from the backside with caution not to crack it.
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Old 09-16-2007, 08:22 AM
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Check out Tony G's link - that's the method I used and it was easy. I used some "u" bolts I had instead of the muffler clamps - same concept.

I've done a full brake job on my car too, but I did it 2 at a time - first fronts, then rears. Doing them together would save you a bleeding I suppose. Rebuilding is not hard, but does take time. I wasn't able to use compressed air to get my pistons out. I had to hook the calipers bck up to the car and use the brake pedal (w/out pads installed. I used a small piece of wood in there too, so they wouldn't pop all the way out - even then I seem to recall that at least one did (just messy).

I'll second the "your pedal will be a bit squishy after rebuilding your calipers" comment. It takes a few miles for the pistons to seat in the new seals.

Tom
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Old 09-16-2007, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
1.) I'm unable to remove the front grease cap "thing" off the front hub.
The easiest, least destructive means of removal is to put a muffler clamp over it, and bang on the clamp to remove. Searching the forum will provide all the details you need, and then some.

Quote:
2.) I had not planned on rebuilding my calipers...I found the rubber bladder things surrounding the pistons to be torn/smashed etc...
Your dust seals are shot. I'd rebuild the calipers. Rebuild kits are cheap. They’re available from our sponsor. And they’re easy to install. Especially if you have access to compressed air. Again, searching the forum will provide all the details you need, and then some.
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Old 09-16-2007, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bell View Post
one thing which can ruin your progress when reinstalling your front calipers is to mix them up, make sure the bleeder valve is at the TOP of the caliper, otherwise you'll waste a ton of time bleeding before you figure out why you can't get good pressure........ask me how I know

if all else fails a 2x4 and a big hammer will get the front caps off, sometimes they need to be really persuaded, if you deform it you can smack it back into shape from the backside with caution not to crack it.
If you do mix em up, just think about what an air bubble does when released under water...Thats right! It heads for the surface. This is the engineering rational used when putting the bleed screws at the top of the caliper.
This thought process should prevent you from ever installing calipers incorrectly.
HTH
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Old 09-16-2007, 01:24 PM
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THIS WHY I SPEND SO MUCH TIME ON THIS FORUM... Thank you ALL for the excellent insights and recommendations. Thank you!

Later Sat evening I finally got the grease caps off. I figures I'd find some rust, but they were in solid shape; just jammed on there (I figure by the factory). I plan to replace them; as I had to whack'em up a bit.

I'm preparing a list for my order (Mon)....

(Qty.2) Caliper Rebuild Kits - Front
(Qty.2) Caliper Rebuild Kits - Rear
(Qty.2) Brake Pad Clips - Front
(Qty.2) Brake Pad Clips - Rear
(Qty.2) Grease Caps - Front
(Qty.4) Bleeder Valves
(Qty.2) Motive Bleeder

I think that's it! ???

Few Questions...

1.) I noticed that the front pad pins didn't have the little wire pin clips; as with the rears. Is this normal?

2.) These rebuild kits; does it require I split the caliper? I hope not...

Thanks again for all your support and help.

Tom
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Old 09-16-2007, 08:56 PM
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no you don't want or have to split the calipers.
you will need to get the pistons out, i use the air/compressor method.....just watch your fingers.
it is very important after you remove the old inner seals to clean all the crap out of the square channel it sits in, if it doesn't seat right it'll twist and the piston will stick, i like to use lots o' brake cleaner and a tooth brush.
the step by step is on the bbs and in 101 projects.
plan on using about 2-3 big cans of brake cleaner for all 4 calipers

and the pins on my carrera calipers have a small rubber gasket on the end which wedges them into place eliminating the need for the tiny clips, just tap them out/in with a small punch or pick, i'm not sure what year they started that.
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Last edited by bell; 09-16-2007 at 10:39 PM..
Old 09-16-2007, 10:34 PM
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Thanks Bell!

I've relegated myself to doing the job right; I'm preparing my order for our host in the morning. I'll take my time.

Also, pon better inspection of my bearings I'm going to replace those too... By chance you wouldn't have any tricks to removing the very inner "spacer" on the spindle/shaft (between the shock and hub)? Looking at the parts diagram, there is a o-ring and spacer; mine appear to be "on there" but good...

Interestingly enough, looking at the overall condition of some of these items, the car should run much better after this is completed. Some of these items were pretty ratty, I'm surprised the car stopped at all.

I'll feel much better when this is all done.

Mahalo!

Tom
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Old 09-16-2007, 10:47 PM
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In the Tech Articles section on the home page for Porsche, this "caliper rebuild " article will be a help to you. Pay attention to the template diagram and use it for your rebuild. http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/911_caliper_rebuild/911_caliper_rebuild.htm

As far as the bearings go, if you get new you also want bearing races. Search the forum for replacing races and you will find some home-made methods for extracting the old one. Putting new bearings in to mate with old races is not a good idea.

Good luck with your DIY. It WILL feel great to know you did it right, did it yourself and saved yourself some cash to put towards the rainy day car repair fund.
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Old 09-17-2007, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcesar888 View Post
...Later Sat evening I finally got the grease caps off. I figures I'd find some rust, but they were in solid shape; just jammed on there (I figure by the factory). I plan to replace them; as I had to whack'em up a bit.
Something that I read on this board and plan to do the next time I have my dust caps off, is to cut a couple of small slits in the portion of the cap that's inserted inside the hub. This should reduce the snugness...why they made it fit so tight in the first place, I'll never know...it's a freakin' dust cap
Old 09-17-2007, 05:28 AM
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moisture too... I would not cut it.

Just enjoy the irony of using a baby food or mustard jar top to service the car...
Old 09-17-2007, 11:03 AM
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Sounds like you are going through the same expierence as me now, over the weekend I was just going to change out a wheel bearing and once I opened everthing up I noticed worn seals and worn out bushings.

See my post I started Sunday
Chain Reaction of the 911 suspension front/rear
Old 09-17-2007, 11:23 AM
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BTW
For the dust caps I just hit them from side-to-side and they walked there way off the hub.
Old 09-17-2007, 11:25 AM
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I did the same job and can report similar results.
Brakes were spongy for a while but settled after a couple of bleeds.
I would definitely used compressed air to remove pistons. Its also good to clean out the fluid vessels in the caliper.
Don't repeat DON'T split the calipers, even though your kit will probably come with the o-rings for that job.
The hardest thing was replacing the wheel bearings on the front hubs. I needed help from a mechanic friend of mine who had a puller and more importantly a press to fit the new ones on.
Good luck!
Phil
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Old 09-17-2007, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanghai_todd View Post
Sounds like you are going through the same expierence as me now, over the weekend I was just going to change out a wheel bearing and once I opened everthing up I noticed worn seals and worn out bushings.

See my post I started Sunday
Chain Reaction of the 911 suspension front/rear

Hey Todd,

My car looks just like yours! NO SHOES, ON JACK STANDS! The pic of the broken down piston bushings are EXACTLY the same...

Good luck, and thanks for the information.

Tom

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Old 09-17-2007, 02:16 PM
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