Post PPI Advice ... should I complain?

[jcsjcs]

I purchased an '84 911 Targa a few weeks back. I bought it from an exotic car dealer (Porsche's, Ferrari's, Maserati's etc.) but his pricing seemed in line with a private seller - and a bit lower than the prices from Excellence for "GOOD" and "POOR" cars.

The car is running well, but requires a bit of work that I have only found out after working on some initial problems.

I made a few mistakes:
1) Used Dealer recommended mechanic (though they are also a reputable PCA approved shop.)
2) Did not have a thorough conversation with the mechanic after PPI - but mainly discussed general transmission, engine, clutch, body, and leak down, compression results.
3) Did not complete a thorough check of the car mysellf (though this is my first "used car" purchase in years and my first 911 and I have A LOT to learn.)

The dealer did pay for a valve job, shift link coupler adjustment, oil change, and Chain Tensioner replacement. I also had some work done on the A/C for "dealer hourly rates."

The compression test and leak down came back well for the age of the car (6% to 10% on all cylinders - except 2 which was 18% - at 200 psi).

BUT - since working on the car, I found that the O2 sensor was unplugged! (and I had to replace), the Odometer does not work, the tires are really old (though they have tread), some hoses need to be replaced (upon visual inspection), and some of the lug nuts were loose. I have an additional list of about 10 items more - things that are "minor" but make sense to get the car in good to excellent shape.

Should I be concerned and complain to the PPI mechanic - or is most of the stuff expected on 25 year old car? It drives great and none of the work to do (so far) is major. I am also probably at fault since I did not have more specific conversations - but wanted the opinion from the group - and I still would have bought the car, though perhaps for a few hundred lower.

NOTE: I did thoroughly review the service records and am comfortable that the Odometer is within 2k to 3k and broke (gear disintegration) recently.

jcsjcs

[Noah930]

I don't know if you have much grounds for any sort of official complaint. (You could try, but I don't know how far you'd get.) Fortunately, most of it sounds like small/easy stuff to set right. But it does tell you that if that's what the shop you used thinks as an adequate and thorough PPI, then that's the type of attention to detail they do for the rest of their work, as well. Next time someone asks you for a recommendation for a PPI (or other mechanical work) in your area, you can gently steer them away from that shop.

[JP911]

If you have a detailed writeup of all of the issues found by the PPI mechanic and you have found things that are NOT listed then, yes, you should complain. I think a written list of issues found during the PPI is essential. See Wayne's recent writeup for his 959, which sets an excellent example.

[Netspeed]

I'd complain to the PPI mechanic. I could see if things were buried deep in the car that came out later, but to miss loose lug nuts begs some questions. Did he take them off to check the brakes and left them loose? Or did he not check the brakes at all and said he did? Either situation and he's in the wrong. Cracked tires with tread...probably sidewall ozone damage (without seeing them) but he should have still pointed them out. Now you have to ask...."What else did I get short-changed on"?

I spent 16 years in the auto-repair industry and can tell you that it only takes a matter of a few minutes to catch stuff.

[175K911]

I would be most concerned with the broken odometer! Did they sell you the car representing the mileage as actual or as "true mileage unknown (TMU)." If they signed an odometer statement that the mileage is actual, I believe you can force them to buy the car back. That is blatently illegal in every state I've ever lived in. Or you can nicely suggest that they may want to amend their mileage statement filed with the state but only after they reduce the price of the car for diminished value. Technically now, you cannot ever sell that car and represent the mileage as actual either. Sorry to be blunt, but that's a serious issue that you'll need to contend with.

[jcsjcs]

I appreciate all of the feedback. I agree with the following:

1) I am not using that shop again.

2) I should let them know about my concerns, though I don't have a lot of leverage to get anything done since the problems (other than the odometer) are relatively small (and would not have changed my decision to buy the car.) I may have tried to get the price lowered, but the dealer did do about $2k in work as part of the purchase and the price was lower than market.

3) I agree that the odometer is the biggest issue - as it will impact future resale and borders on fraud. I was clearly able to see that the mileage is probably within 1k to 3k of the stated mileage from past history (prior to the odometer breaking) unless the owner started racking up a ton of miles in the last year of ownership, but that does not seem to be the case. They sold because they never really used the car - and it shows from the condition.

So I will include this in my complaints to the dealer and mechanic, but I am not going to return the car. I already have about 1k invested in work and I really like it. It drives well, looks awesome, and I have grown attached.

Sadly, emotion rules over logic in this case.... I fell into the trap. Lesson for the future? Perhaps.

[Danny_Ocean]

"Exotic Car Dealer" = "Used Car Dealer"

[450knotOffice]

The items you mention that need addressing are all simple items. I wouldn't waste any sleep over it. Look at this as a chance to get to know your car a little bit better. Replacing hoses is easy and wouldn't be a bad idea anyway, even if the old ones looked good. New tires are always a good thing. By replacing the O2 sensor, you now know you have a new one (one less thing to worry about later). The odometer should be brought up, but I wouldn't let it scuttle the deal. Make it right - fix it.

Look at it this way, for most of us, half the fun of owning these cars is tinkering with them. Look at all of us on this board who are constantly "fixing" something (even if it doesn't really need "fixing"). Enjoy learning to work on your car.

[barney911rs]

Pictures for the group???

[jcsjcs]

These are not my pics - they are from the dealer. They don't quite do it justice, as the color is a bit hotter!

[Jeff Alton]

You paid for a PPI and got a Partial Porsche Inspection it sounds like! Sounds like they did not put much effort in. The loose lugnuts are probably a result of them checking brake pad thickness etc.. pretty shabby work IMO.......

I would look seriously into the odo issue. The car could very well have been mis-represented. But, all that said, if the car drives to your liking and you think you got fair value for the money, don't loose any sleep over it.

I would probably call the PPI shop and explain why you will not be using them anymore or recommending them.....

Cheers

[450knotOffice]

Nice car. Love the color!

Might I suggest that you swap out the US-Spec red tail lights for Euro-spec amber tail lights (and get rid of the mud flaps).

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

The items you mention that need addressing are all simple items. I wouldn't waste any sleep over it. Look at this as a chance to get to know your car a little bit better. Replacing hoses is easy and wouldn't be a bad idea anyway, even if the old ones looked good. New tires are always a good thing. By replacing the O2 sensor, you now know you have a new one (one less thing to worry about later). The odometer should be brought up, but I wouldn't let it scuttle the deal. Make it right - fix it.

Look at it this way, for most of us, half the fun of owning these cars is tinkering with them. Look at all of us on this board who are constantly "fixing" something (even if it doesn't really need "fixing"). Enjoy learning to work on your car.

I agree. Sounds like you did okay. Would you have still bought the car for that price with these other things known? If yes, then let it be. If you had Callas Rennsport look over the car, they would have checked all of this (they have checklists).

I think you're fine, these are all relatively minor issues. Just have the odometer fixed right away...

-Wayne

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

There's a very simple solution to all these PPI problems I keep reading about, and it's to use 1/not a shop, 2/not a mechanic, 3/not a buddy who "knows a lot about Porsches," 4/not somebody you find on PP by posting "anybody in Denver who can do a PPI for me."

You use a professional inspector/appraiser who does this for a living. there are a lot of them out there, and they have particularly proliferated in the age of eBay, when people think nothing of bidding on a car 2,000 miles away. They don't buy, sell or repair cars, so there's no conflict of interest. Their client is you, the buyer, and they don't particularly care whether or not you buy the car. Their only job is to professionally inspect it and tell you what's wrong with it, and they don't give a rat's whether or not the seller agrees with them.

It'll cost you--typically--between $150 and $400 for a professional inspection. There's even something called the IAAA (International Automobile Appraisers Association) that certifies these people.

And no, I'm not an inspector/appraiser.

[Porsche_monkey]

If you are willing to go to the PPI mechanic and ask for your money back, then by all means do it. He won't accept responsibility for any repairs he missed, at most he'll say he did a poor job and refund your money. Might be worth a discussion. Or not.

Did the seller represent the car as 'approved', 'certified' or any other similar terms? If so one would expect the odometer to work and they should repair it.

On the other hand it is likely just the gear and you could fix it inless time than you would spend arguing with the dealer. And do you really want them to touch your car now? Do you want to argue with them over a $100 repair?

You likely got a fair deal. Move on, accept these flaws as things that will happen to an 'old' car. Take pleasure in driving and maintaining and reparing a nice car.

And lastly, if you think you really got screwed over, do search on 'should have got a PPI', I guarantee you will feel better about your car. Much better.

[Por_sha911]

FWIW, we need to know who this PPI mechanic is so as to not trust his work.
Also, I'm wondering if the leakdown numbers are before or after the valve job (and did you get a valve adjustment, valve guides, or a full valve job?) 18% on #2 sounds high to me.
Oh, BTW, beautiful color car!

[Porsche_monkey]

I suspect in the end the leakdown will cost more than all the other minor issues combined. Maybe not for a few years, but eventually.

[Noah930]

I agree with Por_sha911: what's this shop's name? I would rather a fellow Pelican not get burned by their lackadaisical standards. If the shop's feelings get hurt, then that's too bad (for them)--just like all the little things they missed, that's too bad (for you).

[jcsjcs]

FYI - I completed the odometer repair today - replaced the totally "melted" gear. Apparently this is a very common problem. So my odometer is ticking again. I feel confident I can show the mileage is within a few k - and am not in the selling frame of mind now anyway.

As far as the shop - I am going to give them a call on Monday to discuss. I want to give them a chance to respond before I post anything about them.

The seller did not post the car as certified - but did agree to do some work upfront at his cost. to get the car into better shape (which he did based on the PPI.)

It was his car a few years back, he sold it to the owner before me, and they asked him to sell it again on consignment. I don't think he saw the car until I took it for a test drive. He has been very responsive to some of my post-sale concerns - tracked down the Air Compressor, manual and service records for me - and seemed genuinely surprised about the Odometer. I have not discussed the more recent issues, i.e. O2 sensor and lug nuts with him.

And yes, I am satisfied with the car overall. Considering the PPI, I still think I did okay. The color is hot, the car is loaded with options, and with some typical maintenance it is in good shape.

As far as the Compression and Leak Down, I did ask around about the results - but am open to hearing some new opinions. I was told the compression came back GREAT - especially for the age of the engine - and that the leak down was great on all cylinders but 2 - which came in at 18%. They did the valve adjustment AFTER the testing - does this matter?

[Gogar]

I think the concerns are pretty minor except for the odometer thing, as you said.

If anyone adjusted the mixture recently, then surely they would have noticed the O2 sensor thing. You mean unhooked on the end of the cord or in the pipe? I don't know about carreras, but lots of guys unhook 'em on purpose on the CIS cars.