Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Technical BBS > 1- Porsche Technical Forums > Porsche 911 Technical Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 3.00 average.
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
red67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Olsen View Post
I have more pictures from the day, which I'll sort through later. But here's a very quick video clip of Wayne's car from behind.

i gotta say i love your cars, and i'd really love to hear waynes 959, particularly on a track (even if it is with jacks engine in the foreground, which is no hardship for sure!)
but why do people put music over their track videos and porsche videos? annoys the hell out of me. particularly to something that sounds like maverick and goose playing beach volley circa 1984/5.
full respect for the wheels. 0 respect for the music jack!
__________________
Paul
'76 911S - cockney brown
'69 911T coupe - tangerine
'73 911T targa - light ivory
'67 911 coupe - polo red
Old 11-21-2007, 03:03 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #81 (permalink)
Administrator
 
Scott at Pelican Parts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 740
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by red67 View Post
but why do people put music over their track videos and porsche videos? annoys the hell out of me. particularly to something that sounds like maverick and goose playing beach volley circa 1984/5.
full respect for the wheels. 0 respect for the music jack!
Tough crowd.
Old 11-21-2007, 03:11 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #82 (permalink)
Registered User
 
red67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 425
i like (or would like) to hear the sound of the cars scott.
sorry it came across harsh - it was meant half tongue in cheek
appreciate the upload from jack non the less.
__________________
Paul
'76 911S - cockney brown
'69 911T coupe - tangerine
'73 911T targa - light ivory
'67 911 coupe - polo red
Old 11-21-2007, 03:12 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #83 (permalink)
Author of "101 Projects"
 
Wayne 962's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by red67 View Post
but why do people put music over their track videos and porsche videos? annoys the hell out of me. particularly to something that sounds like maverick and goose playing beach volley circa 1984/5.
full respect for the wheels. 0 respect for the music jack!
Umm, before you start unecesarily criticizing people, you should probably take a few moments to read Jack's post. Here it is again, since you apparently missed it the first time:

Quote:
Why is the clip so short and uneventful? It's from when Wayne got sent out in the wrong run group and was just finishing one lap before going back in. And since my mic got unplugged again, I had to add music -- so you won't be able to hear the sound of a 959 coming on boost (which someone described to me today as being like when a movie subwoofer hits you in the sternum.)
__________________
Wayne R. Dempsey, Founder, Pelican Parts Inc., and Author of:
101 Projects for Your BMW 3-Series 101 Projects for Your Porsche 911 How to Rebuild & Modify Porsche 911 Engines 101 Projects for Your Porsche Boxster & Cayman 101 Projects for Your Porsche 996 / 997
Coming in 2014:
101 Projects for Your MINI Cooper
Old 11-21-2007, 03:26 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #84 (permalink)
Registered User
 
red67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts View Post
Umm, before you start unecesarily criticizing people, you should probably take a few moments to read Jack's post. Here it is again, since you apparently missed it the first time:
i did. oops. thanks for putting me back in place wayne.
it was half tongue-in-cheek it says on the post below.
hope we don't have 30 posts below of 'beat me up'
it's a democracy, we can express our thoughts even if it is slightly down on the authority?
if we couldnt it would be communist - i like to hear car engines thats all.
if there was an icon for a beating stick i'd put here... SORRY!

(ps i like topgun and it's music! hence my excellent recall
all said with a smile. no beats please!
__________________
Paul
'76 911S - cockney brown
'69 911T coupe - tangerine
'73 911T targa - light ivory
'67 911 coupe - polo red

Last edited by red67; 11-21-2007 at 03:43 PM..
Old 11-21-2007, 03:27 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #85 (permalink)
Administrator
 
Jack Olsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 13,044
The music was added as a 'greatest hit of 1987' joke. If I had any recorded audio from my car, I would have included it. But my microphone wasn't connected. You can hear the sound of a 959 in this clip:

Old 11-21-2007, 04:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #86 (permalink)
Administrator
 
Jack Olsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 13,044
Driving The 959

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts View Post
As for whether this car is too fast, or more appropriately geared too fast for this particular track, I'll defer to our track-leader, Jack for an answer to that one.


Wayne let me drive the car, which was a real privilege. It's an interesting car. In some ways it was exactly what I expected, and in other ways it wasn't like I expected at all. It's got a lot of Carrera in it. Maybe the most surprising thing about it is that it's small like a Carrera. In spite of the squared-off and aerodynamic bodywork, it looked tiny when you saw it running next to Dave Buhain's 993RS. I got to drive both a 997S and a 997 Turbo last week on the big track, and they both felt a lot bigger and heavier than the 959. They're both phenomenal cars, of course, but this one feels different.

It's a very capable and sure-footed car, in spite of being 20 years old and not yet having gotten its shocks and alignment settings checked and fine-tuned. Driving it was a lot of fun. In fact, I finally brought it in because I was starting to get a little 'lost' in driving it -- I realized I might push it harder around the track than either Wayne or I intended.

The first thing I noticed was how softly it's sprung. It feels like a street car in that respect. But then you carve through a corner and the feel of its body roll doesn't correspond. In hard corners, it felt a lot more like a modern 997 -- really flat. So it's comfortable, but never wallowy.

More surprises from past and future: the shift pattern is like a 901, race style. But the gears -- especially 2nd -- are pretty tall, which makes more sense when you wind it through a 2-3-4 shift at full throttle. Like Wayne says, you drop from 7,200 down to about 5,000 rpm, and the car stays on boost. The power delivery below 5,000 is Carrera-like. But when the turbos kick in, it's pretty spectacular. It's not all that loud, even compared to the recent Porsches, but there's a low-frequency sound to the moment the turbos kick in which hits you right in the chest. The acceleration at that point is pretty amazing.

The car handles extremely well -- and I think it's because of the AWD system's sophisticated design. It doesn't push like a C4. You can throw the tail around and it's very forgiving. The street tires don't feel like street tires when you're tossing it through corners. Even when I got the back end to step out, the tires were quiet. I don't know any of the specifics on how the AWD system allocates power to the wheels, but I like it a lot more than Porsche's later attempts (although the more-recent Turbos are getting better).

The brakes are great. In terms of feel, they're somewhere between standard boost-assisted 930 brakes and the non-assisted 930 setup I've driven on some early cars. There's not a lot of pedal travel, and the calipers grip without a huge amount of leg effort.



I was riding with Wayne when we spun, and the incident was a classic Streets of Willow moment. The chicane at the end of the back straight is blind, and we came into it at an angle that was a little less than ideal. More significantly, the engine might have stalled after Wayne went on the brakes, which would have caused some inadvertent driveline braking as he let up the clutch, and also would have changed the feel of the power steering as the system lost pressure.

Most important of all, though, was that we had been trusting the car's integrated tire pressure sensors up until that point. When we got back into the pits, I measured 52 psi in front and 57 psi in both of the rears. I've never seen pressures that high on tires at the track. The surprising thing is how well the car was handling with those crazy pressures. The less surprising thing is that the car snapped loose, ultimately, when Wayne asked more than the tires could give us. We lowered the pressures down to 36/39 after that, and there were no more moments of drama.

But even with everything set up perfectly, that chicane is a common place for a car to break loose. The spin was more of a 'learning Streets of Willow thing' than it was a 959 thing.

That said, the 959 isn't a perfect match for the tiny Streets of Willow course. The 959 is like the Carrera GT in that it's set up primarily as a street car. It's not a natural autocrosser. Its power comes on pretty quickly once you get the revs up, but the way it's geared means taking a lot of this track in 2nd. And since Streets of Willow is made up of a series of autocross-like corners, with a lot of starting and stopping, and high speeds only on the two straights, the car's weight (low as it is, considering) works against it. This car would absolutely come alive on a track like the main Willow Springs circuit (no walls there either, by the way), where it could stretch out 3rd, 4th and 5th gears with the sophisticated AWD system really shining through the (95-mph) turn 2 sweeper and the (130-mph) turn 8 sweeper.

The ultimate car for Streets of Willow is probably a hopped-up lightweight 914, like John Williamson runs. The 959 is no slouch on any course, but it would be loads of fun at tracks like Willow Springs, California Speedway, Laguna Seca, Sears Point and Thunderhill. Of those, Willow Springs and Thunderhill would bring the lowest threat of body damage.

Like all of you, I'm really impressed that Wayne has the guts to take a piece of Porsche history like the 959 and show that it's more than just a collectible exotic for some rich guy to polish and put on display for his buddies. I'd swear you could feel the joy of every 1980's-era Porsche engineer as the thing lept down the front straight and into the dogleg, shooting up to the hairpin at the top of the hill. It's a car that made history, of course, but it's nice to see that it can still make some serious speed through the corners.

A perfect illustration of Wayne's attitude was that after we spun, he got back onto the pavement and didn't tiptoe at all through the next two corners. The car was right back in its element and both Wayne and I absolutely forgot to exit (so the Start/Finish worker could check with us about the spin). In fact, Wayne was back up to speed and pounding through (I'm pretty sure) a third lap when they finally showed us a black flag to remind us that we needed to follow the protocol and quickly pit before we went back out for more fun. To me, that shows where Wayne's priorities lie. It's a valuable car, and no one wants to hurt it. But first and foremost, it's a car that was designed to be driven really, really fast.



Self-portrait: a 959 on my shoulder, sort of.
Old 11-21-2007, 04:43 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #87 (permalink)
Automotive Monomaniac
 
Emission's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Newbury Park, CA
Posts: 4,203
Garage
Nice write-up Jack!

Kudos to Wayne for running his awesome 959 on the track. The Porsche gods are smiling down on him.

I am pretty bummed to be missing the drive tomorrow (I am sitting at my brother's house in Virginia...).

Good luck guys!

- Mike
__________________
1986 - 930 Coupe / 2016 - BMW X5 xDrive35i / 2015 - Volkswagen Golf TDI 6MT / 2018 -Porsche 911 Carrera 7MT

Group Managing Editor at Kelley Blue Book, Autotrader, Dealer.com / Forbes automotive contributor

Last edited by Emission; 11-21-2007 at 06:41 PM..
Old 11-21-2007, 05:02 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #88 (permalink)
Registered User
 
pwd72s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Linn County, Oregon
Posts: 34,294
Jack...(sorry Wayne)...from viewing your "following" video clip, I'd say a 959 drives out (track) a lot my my dad's old '56 Buick...a whole lot of wallowing, like a sailboat in following quartering seas...boing-boing over elevation changes as well, like the suspension isn't contacting the pavement well.

Wayne? If you want to track again? Send the car to Tyson...or to Jeff Gamroth.

But hell, what do I know? My exteme Kudos to Wayne, for taking it to the track in the first place!

I'd have been scared spitless!
__________________
"Now, to put a water-cooled engine in the rear and to have a radiator in the front, that's not very intelligent."
-Ferry Porsche (PANO, Oct. '73) (I, Paul D. have loved this quote since 1973. It will remain as long as I post here.)
Old 11-21-2007, 05:06 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #89 (permalink)
Author of "101 Projects"
 
Wayne 962's Avatar
You can tell that Jack is a professional writer!

Quote:
A perfect illustration of Wayne's attitude was that after we spun, he got back onto the pavement and didn't tiptoe at all through the next two corners. The car was right back in its element and both Wayne and I absolutely forgot to exit (so the Start/Finish worker could check with us about the spin). In fact, Wayne was back up to speed and pounding through (I'm pretty sure) a third lap when they finally showed us a black flag to remind us that we needed to follow the protocol and quickly pit before we went back out for more fun. To me, that shows where Wayne's priorities lie. It's a valuable car, and no one wants to hurt it. But first and foremost, it's a car that was designed to be driven really, really fast.
True enough, we were there to test the car out, and the spin really didn't phase me out too much. I think the brakes had gotten the speed down quite a bit before the car spun. Didn't seem any worse than the roller-coaster in ToonTown I had been on last week! Jack wasn't phased either - he was mostly concerned with the paint! But, alas, paint can be replaced.

Quote:
The chicane at the end of the back straight is blind, and we came into it at an angle that was a little less than ideal.
Jack is being kind. It's easy to blame the equipment, and the only thing that made me wonder is that the car stalled twice later on in the afternoon, and gave similar effects. Wrong place at the wrong time, travelling a bit too fast on the outside going into a blind corner. In my RS clone, you can't get up to as much speed there - with the 959, everything is just up at the next level or even one beyond the next level. Definitely a bit too much car for my current abilities. As I stated previously, I was very worried about getting on the boost in a turn and having the back end kick out - so much that I think I didn't pay close attention to the other elements that I should have been paying close attention to (like following the line in the course over the chicane). When I drove Ray's car, I felt very much at home, as I felt like I was concentrating on driving and working the course, instead of worried about the boost coming on unexpectedly. I don't really want to be in that position where the power goes from 300 to 450 suddenly. I'm sure if I drove the course every day for a week in the car, I would be able to time it so I'd come through the apex at about 4000 rpm in 2nd, and then hit 5000 just as I'm beginning to straighten out. As much as that would be fun to do, I don't want to risk the car (or me) trying. Streets seems to be a good learning course, and I recommend if you're a beginner that you try it out, as there's not much to hit. I think we had 4 or 5 people spin out yesterday (myself included) with no injuries to any of the cars. Worst injury was a cut hand on a sandwich wrapper I think, and a missed shift that bent some valves.

Quote:
Most important of all, though, was that we had been trusting the car's integrated tire pressure sensors up until that point. When we got back into the pits, I measured 52 psi in front and 57 psi in both of the rears. I've never seen pressures that high on tires at the track. The surprising thing is how well the car was handling with those crazy pressures. The less surprising thing is that the car snapped loose, ultimately, when Wayne asked more than the tires could give us. We lowered the pressures down to 36/39 after that, and there were no more moments of drama.
Actually, we made a mistake here - I should have looked up the conversion for bar to psi on my laptop. The car is supposed to be running at 3.0 bar in the front and 3.5 bar at the rear (1 bar = 14.5 psi). That's 43.5 front and 50.75 in the rear. So, we ended up running them a bit lower than we should have on the track. These are run-flat tires, and are specifically made for the 959, so normal thought on what normal tire pressures should be might be out the window. I have made note of this for the future.

Thanks for the help Jack - it made the day a great ride.

-Wayne
__________________
Wayne R. Dempsey, Founder, Pelican Parts Inc., and Author of:
101 Projects for Your BMW 3-Series 101 Projects for Your Porsche 911 How to Rebuild & Modify Porsche 911 Engines 101 Projects for Your Porsche Boxster & Cayman 101 Projects for Your Porsche 996 / 997
Coming in 2014:
101 Projects for Your MINI Cooper
Old 11-21-2007, 05:08 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #90 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,423
Thanks Jack for the write up, was awesome. Man you left coasters sure have fun. Maybe I need to move to Calyf orn I A
__________________
O2 In Sully We Believe
Old 11-21-2007, 05:13 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #91 (permalink)
Registered User
 
450knotOffice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Posts: 6,078
Garage
Thank you Jack. Very informative, as always.
__________________
-Scott
2009 997.2 Carrera 4S
2000 996 Carrera
1984 911 Carrera Cab
2007 Cayman
Old 11-21-2007, 05:15 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #92 (permalink)
 
Now Available for Ordering:   101 Projects For Your BMW 3 Series 1982-2000  [more info]
Sports Purpose 911 Driver
 
mjshira's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Hermosa Beach, CA
Posts: 4,358
good for you Wayne, use the car like it should be. many in your position would not! kudos.
__________________
James Shira R Gruppe # 271
1997 993 Cab
1972 911 Coupe 3.4 RSR TwinPlug MFI 'Tangerina-Jolie'
1990 964 RSR project 'Norbert'
1957 356A Emory build in progress
Old 08-15-2011, 04:57 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #93 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,345
Garage
Wow, "code brown"!

Steve

73 911 T MFI Coupe, Aubergine
Old 08-15-2011, 07:13 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #94 (permalink)
Max Sluiter
 
Flieger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: So Cal
Posts: 19,577
Garage
Nice to see Rob's early car ('69) before all the Singer business took over. Simpler times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts View Post
Oddly enough, I have good Verizon wireless connectivity here at the track. I can share:

__________________
911S
1971 chassis, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened

Suspension by Rebel Racing, Serviced by TLG Auto, Brakes by PMB Performance
http://www.flickr.com/photos/max_911_fahrer/
Old 08-15-2011, 08:33 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #95 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:37 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2016 Pelican Parts - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.