PCA Rules - Roll Bar Need Clarification PLEASE
 

I am about to write a check for a very nicely done roll bar and need to determine if it meets PCA eligibility as I cannot understand the rule details. The roll bar I am looking at has .120 wall 1.75" DOM for the main hoop and for the rear and cross bars it is .095 wall 1.50" DOM.

PCA states for cars over 1500 lbs (I have a 70 911 coupe that will weigh approx. 2000 lbs) the tubing needs to be .120 wall 1.75" DOM - is this for all tubing or just the main hoop.

I will also be racing in RMVR (vintage association here in Colorado) which also states for cars between 1500 lbs and 2500 lbs .120 wall 1.75" DOM...

Please let me know if the tubing size listed above is legal for PCA and RMVR and whether the rules mean all tubing or just the hoop.

Thanks in advance,
Sam

Sam,

I'm not 100 percent sure but I think all the cage/roll bar tubing has to meet the spec. I wouldn't take the chance. You can find the tech person to e-mail at PCA on the website.

-Andy

I though PCA was requiring full cages next year in all new log book cars as well as with guys with a new racing license?

http://www.pca.org/clubrace/docs/2008%20Rules%20Adopted.pdf

(p. 4 of 7)

You are correct. A person applying for a new license can use a roll bar for their 4 rookie races but after that will be required to have a full cage. From the rule book...

Require full cages in all new log book cars presented by racers with full or
provisional licenses as of January 1, 2008. Allow current stock class log book cars to
run with a roll bar until January 1, 2009. Rookie candidates may obtain a logbook for
a stock class car with a roll bar, but must install a roll cage after completing 4 races
and qualifying for a full license.

Full cage is not just the new rule but a good idea besides.

I understand the need for safety but PCA seems to have taken this Club Racing program further than originally intended. When PCA started this program it seemed that it was directed to the person who could drive the track, race and come home......at least in the stock classes.

Today, even a "stock" car becomes essentially a "track only" car once it has been made competitive. Driving around on the street with a full cage is probably more dangerious than driving on the track with only a bar. Just my 02 cents

Safety Craig is what is driving (literally) the PCA Club racing program. PCA is trying to reduce the danger of what is essentially a very dangerous activity. Club racing in the mid-pack and above is a pretty intense racing (fast and often on 10/10ths edge) With the mandatory neck restraint systems due in mid-season next year, the hypothetical weekend club racer is going to be delegated off to DEs but those still racing are in a " safer "environment.

Sam read the 2008 rule book closely again. Shoot the scrutineers an email. We have a good one locally up in Boulder (check out the national PCA site to determine who).
YMMV

Thanks for everyone's help!
 

Found out by PCA that the rules imply all tubing needs to be the proper thickness and size (in my case 1.50" and .095 for the cage). And I also learned like stated above that PCA will require a full cage next year...so it looks like I need to figure out which cage to go to.

Thanks for everyone's help with this clarification.

Sam

maybe you should post that info on my thread about the roll bars in question. I'm sure you weren't the only one with the same questions.

Yes, but the speeds are so much faster now than ever.

The combination of tires with so much grip and engines that are making so much more horsepower are lowering lap times every year. I remember watching a Trans-Am race at Road Atlanta in the late 1980's. An early 911S 2.0L car can now post a time that would have placed it on the pole in that T/A race.

I think the cage requirement may be also due to insurance requirements. The recent $4.5M settlement due to the Ferrari/Carrera GT incident in CA may cause stricter guidelines in all types of track events.
http://www.sportscarmarket.com/content/carrera

I agree.

I saw a guy riding around in a car with a rollbar while having two kids in the backseat. If he incurred an incident, his kids would be bouncing off the steel bars. :eek:

My Porsche has a rollbar. I always tighten the 5-point harness down very tight and use padding and other head protection to keep my head away from the bars (rollbar padding alone isn't enough to protect your unprotected head from a hard strike). I do not allow any passengers unless they use a helmet and harness (the passenger seat also has a 5-point harness).

Wouldn't it be easier to create a new class?

Let the caged/braced actual "race cars" compete against themselves and keep "Club Racers" speed in check with power and especially tire limitations?

So an early 911s 2.0 is faster around Road Atlanta than an 1988 Audi Quattro Trans Am car?????

Yes, an early 911S is faster in 2007 than a 1988 Audi as it was raced in 1988. A 1988 Audi may be faster today. But I have never seen an old Audi racing in vintage today.

I can post the fastest times of a Porsche 911S in today's vintage racing (he is a member of this site).

I was lapped seven times by an Audi R8 at the spring HSR Sebring GT enduro in 2007. Those cars are very fast (they only won LeMans and Sebring a few times).

Please bring the tech. I'd love to see it. Please allow me to explain the times of a 911S:

http://www.hsrrace.com/HSR/HSRHome.nsf/attachmentweb/EJEN-6YYLB2/$file/Groups_2,_3_-_Vint._Hist._Production_-_Feature_Race.pdf?OpenElement

You'll probably notice that the top nine cars were Porsche (the tenth place car was [is :confused: ] a famous lead singer of a rock and roll band).

Your Audi needs to run a sub 2:30 at Sebring. Where do you race?

Or, if you REALLY want insight into the times of an early 911s, consult the board's own ErVikingo, known to his friends as Juan. . .

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1198014193.jpg

Or Jim Hamblin, who I have been lapped repeatedly by (in PCA club racing GT-5 and H are in the same group)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1098830153.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1098830349.jpg

I had to look up what a Royale RP4 was. . . she was a fast machine. . .

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1198015094.jpg

I can't find any lap times by the Audi 200 Trans Am car....
It just amazes me that a 510hp, all wheel drive, state of the art (in 1988), Trans Am car would lose out to a smaller-engined 911 with less horsepower.

I'm not as amazed as you are. Another surprise might be the effectiveness of a race-ready 356. It's just conceivable that the 356 could beat the 911 that beat the Audi.

Yep, that is Brain. He may be a better race car driver than lead singer.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...obraR/acdc.jpg

Brain and Juan should just go to professional racing. They are both embarrassing us amateur drivers (please notice that I didn't spell "racers").

I been lapped by some of the best racers in history: Hurely, Snodgrass, Yeager.....

Tom Yeager at the Mitty (in a Merlyn):
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...obraR/TomY.jpg

I still haven't found lap times for the Audi so I'm still not sold.

Doesn't make any difference. You can get killed falling off a 6 foot ladder or driving at 100 MPH instead of 110.

It's all good. I wore a fire suit just doing DE's. W/o a cell, I think that was only prudent.

fastest 2 l 911: 1:41.8


1987 Trans-Am pole time (no Audi, but a 944): 1:21.188

Great comparison!
I looked up Mid-Ohio in 1988 and the Audi 200 Quattro lapped at 1:29. Here's the latest SVRA all-Porsche race from Mid-Ohio (hopefully they haven't changed the track layout):
http://www.svra.com/SVRA/SVRAHome.nsf/attachmentweb/EJEN-6DTFR5/$file/All+Porsche+Race.pdf?OpenElement
Notice that an 1994 3.8 Carrera Cup is 3 seconds slower per lap.

PCA racing in the nineties used to be about courtesy and having fun
it seems to me that PCA could probably reduce their insurance rates significantly if there wasn't the high level of contacts at events.

I believe that most vintage racing clubs enjoy a relatively good insurance rate, and also corespondingly enjoy a lot less "incidents" on track

In 1987 Road Atlanta was a different track. After Panoz bought the track, he took out the dip and put in T-10a and T-10b. Nonetheless, I've already argued that a Porsche is fast. ;)

Here: http://www.roadatlanta.com/trackmap.lasso

I couldn't get a page when I put that address in my browser. I don't remember an all-Porsche race last summer at the SVRA Mid-O race. They featured the cars of Italy this year.

I don't remember a production 964 Carrera Cup car in 1994. The RSA was only made in 1992-1993. Nonetheless, every racer starts out as a rookie. Some cars aren't fast when their owners are new to the sport. I am surprised that SVRA allowed a late model car in their series.

HSR and SVRA are owned by the same corporation, but they are two very different racing groups. SVRA has a stricter competition and eligibility rule package, and HSR has larger race groups. I have a license in both groups.

Ah, ok, I must admit I'm not all that familiar with this track's history. 1996 IMSA Pole time was 1:09.4, 1998 it was 1:14.7 (both set by a Ferrari 333 SP). So it seems to have become slower, but probably not by 20 seconds.

Here's the link to the 2005 schedule. Near the bottom it says "All Porsche Race". My bad on the 964 Cup car...it's listed as a 1992...not 1994.
http://www.svra.com/SVRA/SVRAHome.nsf/weblinks/EJEN-674PWL?OpenDocument#rr