One might think so. Is this statement based on actual comparison testing or is it based on what you expect from the resilient properties of the two materials? If the former, can you describe the methodology used?

I ask b/c of Steve W's very clear statements (see above). Chuck M. also has some diagrams posted on his web site.

I'll also add that Porsche designed this suspension in the late 1950s and early 1960s. As Lou Reed once said (in a somewhat different context) "Things have changed."

Moreover, any OEM has multiple factors they optimize for -- and one is usually cost. We often relax that constraint when compared with Porsche. Then there is maintenance as a constraint.

My car's noisy enough with my sport muffler, premuffler, sound pad removed, etc. that I probably wouldn't even notice a bit of extra noise transferred, but I sure don't hear it. To play devils advocate to your premise however, how do you know that the "Poly" portion doesn't isolate/reduce the noise transfer even moreso than rubber would? That would seem to be a pretty decent sound cushion between the bronze bearing portion and the rest of the car imo. I wouldn't assume they're noisier...ride in a well sorted car with polybronze, and you'll see :)! Your point is well taken however, I hadn't considered that aspect at all.

I am reading every one of these posts, so if anyone else is out there that wants to chime in, please do. If for some reason you are hesitant about posting in this thread publicly, then please, I encourage you to send me a PM. Thanks!

I am getting ready to do these bushings on my car. That said I track my car 6 to 8 weekends a year. Not to mention I am the only one that rides in it except my son. My wife won't ride in it any longer since I put the race seats/harnesses and roll bar in it.

If my car was a street only car I probably would not go to these bushings. Not that I believe they will be too stiff or too noisy but I personally think that stock is perfectly fine for the street. I think this stuff is overkill and more costly than needed for the street.
Just my.02

Noise isolation is caused by a stiffness mismatch between the chassis / control arm structure and the rubber bushing. It's basically a 3 dof spring/mass system. It's just math, nothing new here (though obviously the torsion bar 911s did not have very fancy bushings - they do not appear to be designed specifically for isolation in any way...) Isolation gets better as the stiffness mismatch gets to be greater - we shoot for a factor of 10 when designing chassis structure. I'm not smart enough to derive the equations that prove all of this, unfortunately, but I have seen it done... maybe I can find the presentation some day.

The urethane, being thin and having large surface area, is going to be quite stiff. It will not provide much isolation.

Again, I'm not knocking PB's. My car was clearly riding on the torsion bars during bumps (as evidenced by the 1mm deep wearmarks), which is metal to metal and isolates nothing, and I didn't find the ride horrible or objectionable (though it was harsh - may have been the tbars impacting the A-arm that caused the harshness), so I believe the PB comments. But it did get noticeably better when rubber was back in the picture.

The point is simply that rubber has to isolate better than no rubber. Wether or not this isolation matters or is even noticeable? Depends on the car, the roads and the driver...sounds like for many 911 folks the answer is "NO".

So, did you do any actual comparison testing?

Also, there is no need to derive the equations -- but all mathematical models are based on sets of assumptions. We don't have the assumptions for the models you describe narratively.

I personally don't know if the polybronze reduces NVH below that of (new) stock rubber or not. I'm just wondering how this stacks up with expert opinion, as quoted above. It would be better if we had statistically valid trial data. We don't.

I find this discussion somewhat intersting but I think there are many factors (bushings, T-bar size, tire aspect and width, bump steer, corner balance, alignment, shock travel, ride height, and compression/rebound rates, sway bar size and settings, driving style, road surfaces, etc) that go into what constitues what one perceives as a good vs bad ride (ie squeeking, harshess, body roll, etc).

Without knowing the exact configuration of a given car and your personal preferences, it is very hard to tell if another person will find the ride better or worse. We can go around and around on this topic and still not know anymore than we know right now.

Ultimately, you pay your money and you take your chances.

As many of you have already seen, I advocate spending some quality time with a local shop that specializes in setting up 911's and go from there. I know the time I spent discussing my needs with Steve Weiner and Jeff Gamroth (plus repaying them by purchasing my needed goods and services from them) were well worth the effort as I like what I have now.

I installed rear PB bushings last winter on my 84 targa since the rubber ones were worn out. This was after reading a bunch of posts here on all the various options and pros and cons. Did it myself, working slow and it took about ten hours start to finish mostly because it was the first time I had been into the suspension of one of these cars.
I was really impressed with the quality of Chuck's product and I also wanted something that had the ability to grease as needed.
In the spring I replaced shocks and installed PB in the front with the self adjusting washers and mono ball strut mounts and plates. Also upgraded to hollow t bars. At this point, all done, including corner balancing and alignment.
Ride is slightly firmer due to slightly larger bars but certainly not harsh. The entire combination is really nice and I drive the car every day, all year, no matter what. Did all the work myself with help from all the posts here, from Bentley, and Chuck spent about an hour on the phone with me, great guy.
Karl

assumptions or principles?

It's obvious to me that burgermeister has a MUCH better understanding of the principles involved here, than most. Your labeling his (deeper) understanding as "assumptions" is pretty weak. IMO

And, what about the "logic," often thrown about here, that the PB "firms-up the pivot, but is still as compliant as stock" ? :rolleyes:

Jon

For your use (street, not competition/DE), I'd take Chuck Moreland's advice and rebush with rubber. The factory knew what they were doing in designing a sports car for street driving - good handling and control, but a comfortable ride. And 30 years is good service from a part that gets twisted every moment of its driving life.

I realized this not long after I had installed bigger bars and polyurethane bushings and lowered the ccar: I had taken a car that was fun to drive on trips and make it kind of uncomfortable. That didn't stop me from using it for street and track (daily driver), but it did make me wish I could afford two 911s, one for each purpose.

And when a guy who sells stuff suggests you buy something less expensive but better fit for your use, the advice gains some extra credibility in my books.

Walt Fricke

Isn't that what Porsche said when they went AWAY from the model-T era "technology" of messy, time consuming zirked/greased bushings? http://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...ool_shades.gif

I did the same, and that's sound advice for anyone. I'm not sure Steve was using Chuck's polybronze bearings at the time, but the jury was still out back then, and they weren't part of my discussions. I'm just a novice and these guys know a LOT more about these things than me, but I'm still learning, thanks all :)!

I agree. My alignment shop asked me what use my car was put to and when I said road they questioned why I had used 22/31 t/bars - I have to say I can see where they are coming from now as the (bumpy) road handling has now been compromised.

Ever notice how small, drawn-out dips in a road become big bumps, when at speed? --yep, compliance in suspension seems to really help keep the rubber on the road.

As to rubber mounts, I always think back to my motorcycle days, when rubber mounts for m/c engines became more common place. That technology made a HUGE difference in how long I could ride. Why anyone would want to go backwards with "technology" is beyond me. ...Simple, noisy, mounts are not a step forward. They provide no solution to isolate out undesirable impulses. What next, a carbon-fiber seat (no padding)molded to your naked body .... you know, for that maximum road feel? :eek:

I have a carbon fiber seat. :D I should take the padding off you say? (sorry..had to throw one in there for "island" it's been a long time since I posted on the same thread as you :D)

Please do NOT post pics of a carbon-fiber seat (no padding) molded to your naked body. Exception: attractive women.

"Albums played through tube amps" is "old technology"
"CDs played through solid state amps" is "new technology"

It's just not crystal clear to me sometimes :)

... and what really sucks is that new-tech hyper-compressed digital processor decoded and amplified thru tinny little ear-buds "i-pod/i-Tunes" thing. :D

I suppose that the key to new technology, which is worse than the old, is to package it in a shiny shiny box! ..tho' shiny shiny metal parts seem to carry a lot of 'buy' impulse too. :cool:

Island, in some strange way it's actually flattering that my products occupy so much space in your brain.

Yeah, for some reason those products that tout engineering (but miss that mark) sit awkwardly in my brain. It's the "What were they thinking" category. :confused: --lots of products in there with ya Chuck. Yours lower than so many cell phones, if that makes you feel better. :D

I can feel the love...must be the holidays or this would have been a hoot of a pissing match. I refreshed my suspension this past spring. My 78 is a street car with 16 inch 6's and 7's/SO3's. It got new control arms, for the the rubber and neatrix on the spring plates. Every rubber suspension bushing was replaced with new factory rubber. New Blistien Hd's all around, 21/27 t bars, new F/R bearings, ball joints, Turbo tie rods. I really like the way it feels. Figure I'm good for another 30 years.

There's no reason for a pissing match. Rubber and PolyBronze are both good products, they each have different strengths/attributes and the choice depends on what you want from the car. I listed those attributes on page one. I offer both products.

Island's preoccupation with my parts has played out on these pages for 4-5 years. He tries to get attention by tearing my products down. However unintended, this is an homage to the success of the company. He wouldn't bother with an also-ran, there's no glory in that.

I think Island wants a "Polybronze Iphone" for Christmas :)

"Forged Polybronze Iphone" :D

Thank you everyone for your responses and input. Chuck, are there any plans in the future to develop a "rubber-bronze" type of bushing? Something similar to the poly-bronze, but with rubber instead of polyurethane? Is it even possible to develop? If not, what are the hurtles to overcome?

Jon, what would be the objective of that change?

:D good one, tho' I think that you meant to say Gravity cast Polybronze iPhone. ...maybe w/ it running a vid of Al Gores "an Inconvenient Truth" ..with the alternate ending where he saves our over heated planet by wrapping each tree with a cool-collar. :D

Sorry Chuck, while I have looked over your bushings with interest, I really haven't looked too hard at any of your other products. Oh wait, those finned lines. Uhmm yeah, not impressed....but I haven't really voiced that until now. So what products of yours have I been tearing down?

Please don't answer, Chuck. Isly just needs some attention and it will take the thread further off topic.

Chuck, I'm no engineer, I'm just theorizing. My car's suspension needs to be refreshed sooner than later, so in reality, a more realistic solution to my needs is your re-bushing service. That said, a future product such as a "rubber-bronze" bushing seems like the perfect solution for someone like me that likes to do things himself, and wants to replace his worn out, 30 year old rubber bushings, but is fearful that polyurethane will transfer too much road noise or make the ride too harsh for their taste.

Maybe there is someone local with polybronze that you can ride with. I have always found it best to "ride" a potential suspension before installing it on you car. My last vehicle was too new so I ended up trying out four different suspension setups before finding what I liked.

From what people have said in the past the polybronzes ride pretty nice. I am on the fence right now. I have some polyurethane bushings sitting on the shelf (bought a few years ago) but I may end up going with the polybronze because I'd hate to do it twice.

FWIW, oiled rubber bushings are used in various applications. (where the interface between the rubber bush and the center pivot is lubed.) It has good effect/action, but Porsche landed on a solution where most of the deflections (small ones)are simply taken up by the rubber flexing in shear. This works out well as the flexible material can accommodate most all the needed swing. For large deflections the OE bushings are designed to slide. They then slide without the extra smoothness of a greased rubber bushing, but is still plenty smart; as for the really big deflections you don't care if a small bit of energy is taken to drag the bushing. And you also needn't worry about a failure mode of torn rubber.

Oh, be for warned, Chuck has claimed, for years, that the OE bushings are built/designed in a way that does not allow them to slip. Tho' since he is now replacing them, I guess that he must have finally listened to SOMETHING I've said. :cool: ...or maybe he's gluing them in place, just to be "right'. :D

I understand Jon. In practice those fears are simply not founded.

PolyBronze does not degrade ride quality in any meaningful way. The first three pages of this thread are dominated by posts from guys who actually have the product and testify to the fine ride quality.

This has been the consistent theme with PolyBronze customers - many expect to be trading ride quality for performance, then are pleased and surprised to find the product delivers both.

Island - the proof is in the drive. There are many unnecessary products out there for our 911 cars. However, Chuck's products don't fall into the "unnecessary" category. As to the before mentioned drive, at least the front of my car rides much better than it did after I replaced the plastic bushings with polybronze.

What I'm saying is I just can't find validity in your argument here. Other arguments you've posted about aftermarket parts, yes, I can agree. Just not here. I guess if you want to stretch things out to a cost-to-use ratio, OK, maybe Chuck's stuff can leave something to be desired. But hell, when one drives their car daily - as they should - Chuck's products pay well for themselves.

So, dd, you think that those PB's will last as long/longer as the OE? Or are you saying that the ride/performance is so improved . . .wait, you're comparing to plastic bushings?

I don't doubt that the PB transmit less noise than a hard plastic bush or a decades old distorted rubber bushing --where the t-bar is bouncing on metal. ..those are hardly tough acts to follow. Like if someone claimed that they got a flat tire, so they replaced it with a polybronze tire... (note)WOW, What an improvement! (conclude) Rubber tires SUCK. . .just think of all that terrible deflection given up to those wandering old rubber tires.

O well, I suppose this topic is and should be like global warming; consensus, based on skewed data. :rolleyes:

You really need to check out a "well sorted" car with polybronze as there are a lot of them out around by now. I like to "debate" with Island, but imo he's theorizing too, and the real proof is probably closer to those of us that have them installed and how our cars actually perform and "sound". There simply is no "perception" of harshness or road noise due to the polybronze imo, and that's my story :). Caveat: I'm not one of those who "defends" a product just because I've spent the $, if they weren't "good", I'd be the first to voice displeasure and go in a different direction.

I have a 1983 SC coupe that was in need of a suspension refurb as the bushings were tired. As you can see from my sig line I did a complete refurb with bushings,shocks,torsion bars,sway bars etc. and part of that was polybronze bushings in the rear and delrin bushings up front. I had my mechanic install all this in Dec. of 2005 so I have 2 years of use as a baseline. The delrin front bushings I actually purchased used as they had come off a race car and had been modified by the owner with "grease grooves " cut into the inside and zerk fitting holes. My mechanic said the front and rear went together easy with good fit and no issues. I also had the car lowered and corner balanced with an alignment. So I started with a brand new baseline. I do 6-8 autocross events a year and 1 DE and this suspension works great. It is compliant ( no stiction in movement ) but firm both on the track and the street. I grease everything once a year and so far so good. My "butt" tells me the front feels a little different than the rear but I really can't describe the difference, maybe a little bit of stiction? If/when the front bushings fail or wear out I will do polybronze as I am very happy with the way the rear has performed and I believe they will last a very long time. I also have a 914 project car and yep I went polybronze front and rear. To me it's a no brainer.

Good tips guys, if there's anyone in the bay area, California that has the PB bushings installed, and would be kind enough to give me a ride sometime, I would really appreciate it! :D

When I said plastic, I meant rubber, and yes, I see no reason why they shouldn't last longer than OE rubber. Why wouldn't a metal last longer than a rubber that has to be scraped and torched off the surface it has warped to? Emphasis on "scraped," "torched" and "warped."

In a grave attempt to be pithy (I guess), you lost me here, friend.

Admit it, you're just jealous of Chuck and Al. :D

"global warming; consensus, based on skewed data"

- Indeed, this sort of sub-scientific gibberish simply diminishes any persuasive ability Island might have had otherwise. Even with hundreds of the top planetary scientists in the world, the best modeling efforts and reams and reams of data from sea-surface buoys to terrestrial fixed stations, from balloons, to thermal satellite data... there are always some fools who, for reasons of their own, will not accept reality.

I suppose he also disbelieves that tobacco smoke cause cancer... anyway, welcome to the Flat-Earth Society, Island. Your opinions not only lack expertise; they lack even common-sense.