cheap 996 vs not cheap carrera

[K. Roman]

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

I'm too tired right now, but tomorrow I'm jumping back into this discussion.

...and I have both, btw. Love 'em both, but will defend the 996 to the end.

(damn, I feel like us 996 guys are on a Corvette forum).

I hear you brother.

[redstack]

Originally Posted by redstack

This has been great, one thing is I guess I should check with my local Pcar guy, the closest dealer is 50 miles away in Mobile. So if Mr. Walker said he won't touch a 996 that would be a factor. And for the record I do enjoy working on my own cars as much as possible. And I'm not sure how much a guy can or should do on his own on a 996. I mean Brakes, oil change, plugs. That sort of stuff I like to do, change a clutch or mess with AC not set up for it. And the main reason I don't drive it alot is that I am only in Fl for 4-6 months a year, I don't commute to work by car, only by plane. When I'm home I want to jump in and drive to Road Atlanta for a Nasa track day or Roebling Road, Babers etc. And Autox every chance I get. Up to Ashville for some Blue Ridge time. Drive hard and wind it up baby. I love the sound of a flat six, at rpm.

so I guess some will depend on what shows up on my doorstep and some what the guy who will be doing the most serious work says. For what it's worth if a 996 came my way I don't think I would kick it out of bed for eating crackers, but I would also be happy to run an older Carrera for a while.

Thanks again guys. Richard

So I never thought this would turn into a 4 page discussion. My original post seems to have dropped below the horizon even. See above to understand what my intent for the car is.

A couple of points, I do like the looks of all Porsches, even the 964.. The 996 looks good to me, and I can appreciate even the looks of a 356 so that part is all a push for me. Modern vs Classic.

I have a friend with a 84 Carrera and when I drove it (not in anger I'm afraid) I found that for my 6'3 250lb that it was kind of cramped as far as head room. Don't know what I'd do with a helmut on.
I have only sat in a 996 once and it seemed to have more head room.

I want a coupe because at track days I don't want some guy with a broomstick telling me I have to go home and not get my $250 back. So that means no Boxster. I'm sure that there are ways to lower seat height in any 911, but doing a search on here I didn't find much info.

I did get to autox a buddies 96 C4S and while it was great and powerful, the 4 wheel understeer was maddening. Good track car I'm sure tho.

Last point, like someone said, Women are more accepting of the more modern cars, which means my wife MIGHT consider letting me up the budget if she could drive it some. She drove a buddies 89 Cab and hated it, plus had cops following her on the freeway. What a deal that was, he was going away for the summer and wanted my wife and another woman to Exercise the car once a month or so. Took her for a check drive and told her to wind it out every gear and double clutch even on up shifts. She wasn't impressed. Luckily he didn't go away and she didn't Have to drive the red convertable Porsche.


Right now I'm still on the fence, it would all depend on what was available when I'm ready but I wouldn't be afraid to own either one. Thanks again for sharing your wisdom and the pissing match.. R

[redstack]

Sorry John, I meant Harry WILLIAMs in Pensacola. I spend a lot of time in Seattle and got you two guys mixed up..

redstack,
Good luck in your decision. They are all great cars, but every generation has a serious achilles heel. They all come with some financial risk. My only reson for joining the conversation was to dispell some of the myths that permeate bbs's. Sounds like your lady may have a say in the final decision.

[RF5BPilot]

I am amused by claims of which is a "real Porsche"--as I was autocrossing 356's when the 1st 911s came out. Many were aghast at the Frog Car from Outer Space. What was the factory thinking?....smoking?? I still know a few who steadfastly believe that the only Real Porsche has 4 cylinders....all the rest of you are Posers! :-)

In terms of reliability, at this point, my guess is that it will depend more on how any individual vehicle has been cared for. The teething problems related to the newer design seem to have been largely put to rest. Some have argued to get a 996 Mk II or later ('02 onward). I'm not convinced that it is necessary.

A general rule of thumb seems to be, for greater entertainment value...buy an older car. For greater practicality, refinement and ease of service--buy a newer car. These are not dichotomous choices....merely on a sliding scale.

I suggest this applies to cars earlier than an '88. Want more entertainment than an '88? Get a '69-'72 911S. The older you go, the greater the entertainment...and the less practical it will be. It is not that you can't drive a 356 cross country. But finding needed parts & service is simply easier in a newer vehicle. Even now at the dealership, the service guys start to wrinkle their noses when they see that mine is an older 2003 model.

Some whine that the 996 shares parts with the Boxster. I think it's an advantage. This will help assure good parts availability over the years.

I have been extremely pleased with how pleasant my 996 is to drive. It gets reasonable fuel mileage if I'm careful (29-30mpg-hwy). It is so capable, if I can think it....the car can do it. I know its capabilities exceed mine...so my best speed upgrades will be some good driver schools over time.

Yet, on a nice afternoon where I can just blast into the countryside, I do find myself daydreaming about my '69 911S. Yet, in crappy weather and heavy traffic....I'm driving the better choice.

Good luck.

[jwetering]

Originally Posted by RF5BPilot

I am amused by claims of which is a "real Porsche"--as I was autocrossing 356's when the 1st 911s came out. Many were aghast at the Frog Car from Outer Space. What was the factory thinking?....smoking?? I still know a few who steadfastly believe that the only Real Porsche has 4 cylinders....all the rest of you are Posers! :-)

In terms of reliability, at this point, my guess is that it will depend more on how any individual vehicle has been cared for. The teething problems related to the newer design seem to have been largely put to rest. Some have argued to get a 996 Mk II or later ('02 onward). I'm not convinced that it is necessary.

A general rule of thumb seems to be, for greater entertainment value...buy an older car. For greater practicality, refinement and ease of service--buy a newer car. These are not dichotomous choices....merely on a sliding scale.

I suggest this applies to cars earlier than an '88. Want more entertainment than an '88? Get a '69-'72 911S. The older you go, the greater the entertainment...and the less practical it will be. It is not that you can't drive a 356 cross country. But finding needed parts & service is simply easier in a newer vehicle. Even now at the dealership, the service guys start to wrinkle their noses when they see that mine is an older 2003 model.

Some whine that the 996 shares parts with the Boxster. I think it's an advantage. This will help assure good parts availability over the years.

I have been extremely pleased with how pleasant my 996 is to drive. It gets reasonable fuel mileage if I'm careful (29-30mpg-hwy). It is so capable, if I can think it....the car can do it. I know its capabilities exceed mine...so my best speed upgrades will be some good driver schools over time.

Yet, on a nice afternoon where I can just blast into the countryside, I do find myself daydreaming about my '69 911S. Yet, in crappy weather and heavy traffic....I'm driving the better choice.

Good luck.

The man very very nicely sums it up.

[johncarlos2003]

Funny how your wife hated the 89-

my girlfriend hates driving my 88- let her drive it a couple times-

one thing is for sure- you will be driving the 996 pretty well right off the bat-

a 3.2/ sc etc takes some time- i got better and better and now it handles great, moves easily where and when i want it (most of the time!)-- in the beginning though it feels odd and heavy etc.

good luck with your decision- if your not going to keep it forever and don't mind double in repair/part costs go for the 996- they are a great drive, different, but still better than most on the road today- heck, if i wanted a modern sports coupe id go early 996 no question for the $ and the amazing amount of car you can get for mid 20's- just get a wicked good pre-purchase inspection done!

cheers!

[Zef]

If you like the Japanese look of the 996...go for it....!

[K. Roman]

Originally Posted by Zef

If you like the Japanese look of the 996...go for it....!

Well judging by your choice, you seem to like the acceleration of a Prius!!!

[450knotOffice]

If you like the Japanese look of the 996...go for it....!
__________________
Syl

Ya know, the thing that always gets under my skin is the derogatory comments directed at the 996 and it's admirers by some of the members of this forum. What do these comments accomplish, other than to polarize those of us who might actually like more than one kind of Porsche. What ever happened to the custom of not saying anything if you didn't have something good to say?

Personally, I happen to love my classic, frog-eyed old 1984 Carrera. It's a beautiful car with a raw raw, go-cart-like feel. It reminds me of my Dad's old 911 from many years ago - the car I sat in the back seat of when I was six years old (I'm 43 now). However, it's also dated and I am under no illusions as to it's performance in any arena when compared to just about any high performance car built today. It's not as quick. It's not as fast. It doesn't handle as well (in any aspect). Do I care? No. It is what it is and I have fun with it.

I happen to love my 996 just as much, but in a different, less nostalgic way. It is beautiful in my eyes (who cares if you don't think so?). It's very quick, very fast, handles beautifully, especially when pushed. It's quiet when it should be but has a nice exhaust growl when you get on it, especially with the PSE exhaust system installed. The interior is nicer than most of you seem to realize and is eminently more comfortable than any 911 before it, yet it is snug and cocoon-like (as a sports car should be) with the steering wheel, pedals and shifter placed absolutely perfectly - I have never sat in any car, other than my wife's Cayman, that feels more "right" for driving right from the get-go (and no, the old 911 does not feel "right" to most drivers new to the car initially. Most have to learn to adapt to the floor mounted pedals, stiff clutch, gear lever that's way-over-there with it's agricultural feel and super long throw, and the straight-up driving position and steering wheel). Not only that, the interior has a more solid feel than the (what I consider) delicate 911 interior bits, like pretty much every piece of the door trim, pockets, interior door lever, and grab-handle, not to mention that storage box that mounts to the center tunnel with four little sheet metal screws and feels as if it will rip out and tip over if I lean my leg on it too hard.

I am not a big fan of the '72 and earlier 911's. They are more slab sided (especially the really early cars) than the 996 could ever be accused of. The much vaunted long-hood look is plain and VW bug-ish, imo. In a nutshell, I just don't really care for them much. The same goes for many of the Porsches produced. They just aren't my style. But, so what. Up until this point, I've never said anything about my lack of desire for a longhood, or a 914, or a 924/944, or a 928. It just doesn't matter to you guys what I think of a certain model, and since it doesn't - why say anything at all? I just keep quiet and let those of you who think these cars are the end-all, be-all of Porscheness enjoy your cars. It's none of my business what I think of your car. And it should be none of your business what you think of my 996, and between the lines, what you think of my sense of style.

Like I said, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it. Didn't your parents teach you that? Mine did.

Rant over now.

And just to piss you guys off, I'm going to include pictures of my "Japanese" looking 996 now:



And there's nothing wrong with this interior either. It's functional, stylish, solid and rattle free, and all leather (including the dash)


At the track. Yes, these cars love the track.


The two together

[jwetering]

I think we might actually be winning this bun fight Scott.

One thing though...as much as I like the 996 interior - (and I do, it's one of my favourite things about the car, full leather helps) I have never really liked the position of the steering wheel. It's in my lap. There's only one seat/steering wheel position where I can turn the wheel through 180 degees and not put my knuckles into my thigh, and then only just barely. What the car really needs is some rake adjustment. Am I the only one?

I also don't like the sluggish e-throttle response. I think there's a fix for it, but it doesn't bother me enough to look into it very far.

Oh - but hey now I'm getting picky...not complaining.

I do miss my 911 though - I for one felt *exactly* at home in the hot seat from day one. Love that 915 shifter too....once the rev matched downshifts became second nature.

[450knotOffice]

Hey, nothing is perfect, eh?

For me, I didn't feel at home in the first 911 I drove (which was an acquaintance's similar-year Carrera a few years before I bought mine). I certainly do now (I love it now), but I didn't at first, and I've heard and read of many drivers who had to get used to the unique layout.

Yea, compared to an SC or earlier car with CIS, carbs, or MFI, the E-gas does feel a bit sluggish, but it's not something I really notice in day to day driving or even the track.

By the way, you'll notice that I still have my old Carrera and will probably never get rid of it. I love that car (in fact, I'm getting into it to run a few errands as soon as I get off the PC. )

[aigel]

Originally Posted by Eagledriver

If you buy a 22k Carrera you can keep it 10 years and sell it for 25k. If you buy a 22k 996 you can keep it for 10 years and sell if for 12k. In 10 yeas I'd rather have the older car and the 13k.


-Andy

That's the biggest plus on the 88. Also, you can work on it w/o trouble.

22k is almost 993 territory as well, BTW.

George

[89911]

I've looked at all the post of those with pictures of 996's and I am still convinced they are not what I would want a sport car to look like (I spared the word ugly). It's not that the car is blatantly ugly. It's just uninspiring. Sure you can rice it out with factory aero kits and make it look like a GT3 wannabe (But don't forget those actually have engines designed for track use). If 996's are what I have to look forward to, I'm switching brands. Give me any car prior (H*LL, I've even consider a 964!) I guess those that drive them a lot really like them. It might be because they don't have look at them.

[450knotOffice]

I can totally see your points and understand that the look of the cars is simply not for you. I'm absolutely good with that. Heck, I can't get inspired by ANY of the longhoods (OK, the '73 RS for sure, but that's the exception for me) for that matter, but I absolutely drool over all of the air cooled Turbos. They are about the most inspiring, exciting looking cars I can think of. They are so in-your-face!

[Racerbvd]

Ok, I have driven a few 996s and they are like a Lexus, if that is what you like go for it, me, I enjoy driving my cars
Dr Porsche died the same year that the 996 cam out, the good Dr. & air cooled left at the same time
The dash pod of a 996 & door handles are very close to a mercury Courger,




wheels, mirrors like a Ford Probe When did Ford buy Porsche???





But then again, I have always been an old school guy. I'm not saying the 996 isn't a good car, hell, it makes lousy auto-crossers who couldn't compete with tricked out RSAs in the top 5(it does the real work) and is comfy too
Of course, I wouldn't lock out a GT3RS out of my garage, but it is the first of the waterpumped a$$ haulers that I have really liked

[ninesixfour]

Air, water, oil, Ford Probes, aerokits...whatever. Everyone has their preferences. What no one is telling you is that the A/C in an older car is going to be very disappointing, especially in hot humid place like Florida. If it's a real concern like you say then this could be a deal-breaker.

[jwetering]

Originally Posted by aigel

That's the biggest plus on the 88. Also, you can work on it w/o trouble.

George

I've already ranted for like six posts on this subject. The 996 is overall *easier* to DIY than a 88 Carrera. Check out Trogg's fuel line replacement thread ask him if that job went w/o trouble. I've worked on 3.2 911s - They are a PIA compared to my 996...plus which you don't actually *have* to work on the 996 because it's a new car and everything hasn't worn out yet unlike the parts on the now 20 yr old 911.

sheesh - ridiculous!

[wcc]

I didn't read most of this, heck barley any of it, but I would have the older Carrera hands down. Even if you got it for the same price ast a 996 you could put a aftermarket AC system for ~1500 and sell it in 5-10 yrs and get all or most of your money back out.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by ninesixfour

Air, water, oil, Ford Probes, aerokits...whatever. Everyone has their preferences. What no one is telling you is that the A/C in an older car is going to be very disappointing, especially in hot humid place like Florida. If it's a real concern like you say then this could be a deal-breaker.

I'm in FL. my 88 AC blows 34 degrees and is the factory unit. In the long run, the early cars will hold value much better than the 996, hell, 993s are bringing more dollars and even 964 turbos bring close to the same money as 996TT. For work (I sometimes have to take people with me), I drive a Jag XJR, and that AC will freez you out. You see more people trying to trade the 996s for early cars than the other way around