cheap 996 vs not cheap carrera

[dd74]

Originally Posted by Chuck Grieb

From what I understand, the 996 GT3 has been the single most successful race car Porsche has produced - winning more races than any other single Porsche model prior.

Than all air cooled Porsche race cars, in all classes of racing? And BTW, a 996 GT3 is hardly a stock 996 IMO.

[the]

Originally Posted by ZAMIRZ

Apparently you failed high-school economics.

Price is merely a function of supply/demand.

Exactly. Because of their lukewarm styling, outdated japanese headlights, slab sides, and cheap interior, demand for them is low.

[ZAMIRZ]

Originally Posted by the

Exactly. Because of their lukewarm styling, outdated japanese headlights, slab sides, and cheap interior, demand for them is low.

Wow, you are thick. How about because Porsche is more profit-driven than ever and pumped them out at a ridiculously high-rate. OVERPRODUCTION is why they're so cheap, not your subjective assessment of its styling and interior quality. Thanks for playing.

[the]

My assessment is not subjective at all. The bottom feeder prices of 996s are an objective truth. The market is purely objective, the ultimate in objectivity.

But YOUR assessment is subjective. I bet you don't even know how many 996s were produced. You are simply making things up.

[450knotOffice]

I'll also refute the "people don't like them" claim. The air-cooled-only crowd may not like them, but I get more people from the general populace complimenting my 996 then my black car. Also, it bears repeating that these cars sold in record numbers when new. Apparently, there were many, many people who liked these cars enough to plunk down between 75K to 95K for them. Yes, these same people moved on top the 997 when it came out and these same people will move on to the 998 when IT comes out (they can't be seen with yesterday's old news, now can they?). These record number of initial sales generated a record number of used cars on the market. High supply and an economy that's in decline causes a drop in prices for these cars. Like Amir said - supply and demand is at work here.

Supply and demand is also working with the 993 prices too. Relatively low supply when compared with the 996 and the fact that it's the last of the air cooled cars combines to create a higher price for these cars.

[jwetering]

Here's a couple of guys on Rennlist attempting the *IMPOSSIBLE* . They are replacing water pumps on their 8 year old 996s, and are running into very typical Porsche DIY related snags - ie limited clearance requiring the lowering of the engine.

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=378344

No it doesn't look that easy or fun, but the one guy was done in 8 hours spread over 2 days work.

Now take a quick review of Troggs nearby and fairly short fuel line replacement thread

Can you guess what's missing in this photo?

He had a little more trouble and claims to have lost some blood in the process. Took him a lot longer because he (like I did when I did the same job) removed the whole intake system.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Simple jobs, not all that easy, but entirely DIY-able.

So STFU about the 996 DIY already.

And while you're at it you can stop suggesting the cars are worse built. The 996 is much more rock solid then my 911 ever was. Stiff as a board, top quality brakes, suspension is like a piece of art (and an evolution of teh 993 setup by the way). The reason it takes less time to build a 996 than a 911 is because Weideking gave his head a shake and automated up.

I'll suggest that anything hand made will be by definition lower consistency and quality than the same thing made by a robot or whatever. The reason it takes so long to hand build a car is that there's one guy doing the build, then there's another guy right behind him dressing up the flaw in the first guys work.

Wait - let me zip up my flame suit....

[450knotOffice]

Alright "the", tell us how many were produced. And you can claim your assessment isn't subjective all you want but it doesn't make it true. YOU claim it's ugly. Many people out there disagree with you. There is a high supply because a record number of people thought these cars were the bees-knees and bought them. These same people moved on, as they always do, and we now have a glut of 996's in the market. There are a lot of 996's out there competing with each other for the sale and there just aren't that many buyers out there climbing all over each other for a used sports car. Low demand. Don't think that this same phenomenon won't happen with the 997, because it will, as sure as the sun rises in the East. So, yes, the objective truth is that prices are low (bottom feeder as you so derisively put it). But the reasons for that are much more in line with Amir's initial assessment versus your very subjective take on it's looks as being the root cause of the car's low resale prices. Most of us think the 997 is a beautiful car, but that car will suffer the same resale fate as the 996 has because it has been produced in even higher numbers than the 996.

[ZAMIRZ]

Originally Posted by the

My assessment is not subjective at all. The bottom feeder prices of 996s are an objective truth. The market is purely objective, the ultimate in objectivity.

But YOUR assessment is subjective. I bet you don't even know how many 996s were produced. You are simply making things up.

Wow, this is just about the dumbest thing I've read on the tech forum. Do you really believe that 996 production is similar to that of previous generation 911s? Or are you just calling me a liar? It doesn't matter, prepare to be owned my motor-mouth refugee from off-topic.

According to PCNA, total 993 production for North American Mkt. is 24,041 (including 2,085 turbos). Total NA 996 production 112,900 (including 9,969 turbos).

And while I'm at it, Forbes named the GT3 in its Top 10 Vehicles with the best resale value.

http://www.forbesautos.com/advice/toptens/best-overall-resale-value-2007.html?partner=digg

Last I remember, the 996 GT3 has the same "lukewarm styling, outdated japanese headlights, slab sides, and cheap interior" as you so eloquently put it.

Nearly 4000 posts in a year and a couple months here. Why don't you go back to OT or start making yourself a little bit more useful in the tech forums instead of calling me out when you don't know WTF you're talking about. Thanks for playing though, people like you are always fun to own

[K. Roman]

I had a 993 carrera S and yes, that is the production number on those cars.

And yes there were 100,000+ made of the 996's.

That is the real reason the price is low, and of course the intro of the 997.

"the" maybe you should stick to facts, and quit bringing up your unwanted opinion.

But, overall it's fun to see you get owned!

[3.2 CAB]

I should have read this sooner!!! I am still cracking up with some of the things I have read here today. If I was able to "ROFLMAO" I would, this has just been too funny. I wish I had started reading this post a lot earlier than I did.

[the]

"owned," lol, thanks for the trip back to 2004.

100,000 cars over an entire production life (e.g., a mere 20,000 per year) is not a lot of cars in a country the size of the US, with millions and millions of cars sold every year. If the 996 weren't so homely, it would command a much higher price. BMW M cars, for example, are produced in much higher yearly amounts than the 996, but they hold their value much better. The 997 will hold it's value better too.

With sports cars, sex sells, and the 996 just ain't sexy.

[Turbo Den]

selling more 996 does not make it better than a 993.
why? there are more Toyota Camry than both 996 & 993 combined.

996 hot sale success shows its popularity when NEW, during America's longest economic growth cycle. Besides, 993 could have sold more if production was as fast as 996 and sold more than 94-98 vs 996 are sold longer btw 98-2004.

today, we're discussing used 996 vs classic 911 (just to let you know which side i am on LOL).

i certainly hope pre-89 911 continue to maintain its value.
but i disagree that today's 996 prices will go much lower than $25k.
theré's always a baseline when people start to realize the value in these cars.
eg. as someone mentioned 996 in Germany are more expensive today.
eg. high school/college kids prefer to spend $25k on used 996 than a new GTi.

i can only see 996 values to bounce back once the minimium prices stablize.
and now i also wonder, has this kind of heated debate happened before? comparing used 964 vs classic 3.2/SC during the 993 era.

[Chuck Grieb]

Originally Posted by dd74

Than all air cooled Porsche race cars, in all classes of racing? And BTW, a 996 GT3 is hardly a stock 996 IMO.

I hardly expect that many "stock" 911s have had signifigant success in racing for a long time. The 993 GT2 could hardly be considered a "stock" 993, same for the 993 RSR or 964 Cup.

Maybe you misunderstood my initial point. I am saying the 996 GT3 has the won the most races of any individual model that Porsche has produced. Not that this one model of car has won more races than the history of air-cooled race car models produced by Porsche.

On another note, Porsche has been using water-cooled engines in their race cars since the 1980s (I think); but I have no idea as to the total number of wins water-cooled vs. air-cooled (and don't think that it is relevant).

I was simply responding to your suggestion that if the 996 series had a correspondingly successful race record you might find it to be a more compelling car. (I am fully aware of the history of the GT3 engine block and it's association with the air-cooled 964/GT1/993 engine.)

The "attacks" on the 996 have been going on since it's introduction. I understand the affinity for the tradition of the air-cooled 911 which lasted for more than 30 years, but don't think that this affinity justifies the animosity so often expressed toward 996 owners and their cars.

I find most of the arguments as to why 996s are "bad" Porsches to be poorly founded and can understand the aggravation these all too often absurd and sometimes vicious criticisms would cause the owner of a 996. I drove a 996 on one occasion, had a buddy who owned a Boxster for a while and had the chance to drive it a few times. I thought they were great Porsches to drive. But I've been driving a 964 and loving it for almost ten years, so what do I know .

[jwetering]

Originally Posted by the

"owned," lol, thanks for the trip back to 2004.

... BMW M cars, for example, are produced in much higher yearly amounts than the 996, but they hold their value much better.

Looks to me like the M3 and M5 are about the same price as the 996. These cars were listed in the last week on Craigslist in the sf bay area. I'm sure you could do better with a universal search tool (which no-one has yet told me how to use BTW).

I guess you could argue that the M3 was lower priced than teh 96, and therefore "has held it's value better" but we'd be tossing about a few thou at the most.


Also....talk to the knowledgable M guys, the M3 motors have serious crank oiling issues.

2001 M3 : $26.5K http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/car/522873342.html

2002 M3 conv: $32K http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/car/522713127.html

2002 M3: $27K http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/car/522142001.html

2002 M3 $23K: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/car/521723636.html

2001 M5: $27K: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/car/520703229.html

2002 M3: $27K http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/car/521298533.html

[redstack]

Hey jwetering:
ok here is a link to the craigslist search engine i found the other day.
Don't know what the rules are about this stuff here. but here goes

craigshelper.com

I used to to seach for both 77 - 89 911's and 996's makes for a fast search.

Actually got the idea to google for a search engine over at club914

[dd74]

Originally Posted by Chuck Grieb

I hardly expect that many "stock" 911s have had signifigant success in racing for a long time. The 993 GT2 could hardly be considered a "stock" 993, same for the 993 RSR or 964 Cup.

Depends on what your idea of stock is. Nevertheless, many "stock" 911s have raced and had success in racing. I haven't seen as much from the 996/7. What I have seen is an old '74 911 (with a 3.6 and shortened gears), beat a 996 GT3 in a 25-hr. endurance race, which says a lot.

Originally Posted by Chuck Grieb

Maybe you misunderstood my initial point. I am saying the 996 GT3 has the won the most races of any individual model that Porsche has produced. Not that this one model of car has won more races than the history of air-cooled race car models produced by Porsche.

Yes, and my point is that various versions of air-cooled 911s have won various types of races. Rallies, Trans-Am, stock classes, whatever. I'm sure there's a couple drag races somewhere in there too.

Originally Posted by Chuck Grieb

On another note, Porsche has been using water-cooled engines in their race cars since the 1980s (I think); but I have no idea as to the total number of wins water-cooled vs. air-cooled (and don't think that it is relevant).

I believe it's still notable. It says Porsche can produce viable water-cooled race cars. And it's good for bragging rights and sales.

Originally Posted by Chuck Grieb

I was simply responding to your suggestion that if the 996 series had a correspondingly successful race record you might find it to be a more compelling car. (I am fully aware of the history of the GT3 engine block and it's association with the air-cooled 964/GT1/993 engine.)

I already find the 996 a compelling car. I wouldn't have involved myself in this thread as long as I have if I thought it needed as much defensiveness as it is receiving.

Originally Posted by Chuck Grieb

The "attacks" on the 996 have been going on since it's introduction. I understand the affinity for the tradition of the air-cooled 911 which lasted for more than 30 years, but don't think that this affinity justifies the animosity so often expressed toward 996 owners and their cars.

Opinions are healthy. I don't perceive animosity in this thread. Just strong-willed opinions.

Originally Posted by Chuck Grieb

I find most of the arguments as to why 996s are "bad" Porsches to be poorly founded and can understand the aggravation these all too often absurd and sometimes vicious criticisms would cause the owner of a 996. I drove a 996 on one occasion, had a buddy who owned a Boxster for a while and had the chance to drive it a few times. I thought they were great Porsches to drive. But I've been driving a 964 and loving it for almost ten years, so what do I know .

You drove one? Yes, but have you owned one? Have you lived with the potential problems, whether or not they are urban legend, that the cars are said to have? I think those most qualified to answer anything about the 996s are the individuals who own them, not the ones who read stats, hang out at race tracks with 996s, go on fun runs with 996s, or who have good friends who own 996s.

To put it another way, I've driven a Pinto. That doesn't mean I know what it's like to have the car blow up with me inside it after being rear ended.

[Chuck Grieb]

Originally Posted by dd74

. . . Opinions are healthy. I don't perceive animosity in this thread. Just strong-willed opinions.

You drove one? Yes, but have you owned one? Have you lived with the potential problems, whether or not they are urban legend, that the cars are said to have? I think those most qualified to answer anything about the 996s are the individuals who own them, not the ones who read stats, hang out at race tracks with 996s, go on fun runs with 996s, or who have good friends who own 996s.

To put it another way, I've driven a Pinto. That doesn't mean I know what it's like to have the car blow up with me inside it after being rear ended.

You've lost me with the Pintos.

The comment that I initially responded to:

Originally Posted by dd74

... Doesn't quite convince me the way dozens or hundreds of racing victories in various categories at the hands of air-cooled Porsches have...

The information I provided pertaining to the remarkable winning record of the 996 GT3 isn't opinion, it is fact. The GT3 is the winningest Porsche model to date. Has Porsche had significant success prior to the GT3? Of course! We agree completely on this point. You seem unprepared to accept the fact that the water-cooled 911s have been raced very successfully. I am not looking to argue the point, I simply found the info appropriate in the context of your initial comment.

I've already expressed how I perceive the attacks on the 996. To compare, my 964 has a "challenged" reputation, yet I have experienced years of reliable enjoyment. Does this mean the known 964 problems don't exist? Of course not - on the early models some had heads that leaked, flywheels that failed and distributors that need to be vented. Unfortunately these issues became so exaggerated that even today you often see folks dismiss the 964 out of hand. The 996 suffers even more due in part to the dramatic break with the traditional 911 features such as air-cooling and the signature interior.

I am not planning to purchase a car anytime soon, but if I were, I would likely give the 996 a careful look.

[jwetering]

Originally Posted by dd74

.....I've driven a Pinto. That doesn't mean I know what it's like to have the car blow up with me inside it after being rear ended.

I had a 1978 Bobcat station wagon a few years back, with a V6. It was my winter beater cuz I never could drive my 911 in the winter.

Anyway - the dash literally disintegrated once when I was trying to replace a bulb or something, and then a few months later I went over a speed bump too fast and the oil pan split open. Drained the oil all over the street, I drove it until it started clanking and smoking, then parked it in an alley, pried off the serial number, and abandoned it.

I don't remember what I did after that - I must have driven the 911 for a while until it was time for another beater.

Not that this is any way germaine, but an amusing story which you reminded me of.

[ZAMIRZ]

Originally Posted by the

BMW M cars, for example, are produced in much higher yearly amounts than the 996, but they hold their value much better. The 997 will hold it's value better too.

Your analogy is flawed (big surprise ). BMW ///M cars represent the pinnacle of sporting vehicles within a specific model line-up, a more accurate comparison would be to look at BMW ///M cars and Porsche's GT line-up and compare % depreciation.

[the]

That maybe used to be true about the M cars, but they are a high production model now. Tens of thousands sold per year. Can't really compare that to the CGT.

Anyways, keep up your sweet looking SC, in a couple of years you'll be able to trade it/"upgrade" to a 996, on a straight swap! I'm sure you can't wait.