what is everyones opinion about 964's?

I am looking to purchase a 964. I need some direction as to what to look out for. I owned a very nice SC a few years ago. I dont know the things to look out for in the 964 era.

Things to watch out for on the 964-era 3.6 liter engine: power steering pump problems, dual mass flywheel, distrbutor vent kit (keeps the dual-distributor belt from breaking, very important), and -- with engines manufactured before mid-1991, the problem with head gasket seals leaking oil. Porsche offered a fix, but doing it out of warranty will cost you more than the engine is worth.

Also, if you get a C4, the four-wheel-drive has a real distinct set of virtues and shortcomings that guys tend to love or hate.

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Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe
jackolsen@mediaone.net

Anyone want to run down all the "duals" on these things...
I mean, do they REALLY have two coils and two distributors?
Anyone got a pick of one of these engines?

Twist my arm:

Jack Olson's post is pretty much on the money.

I bought a '91 C4 with about 18K on it two months ago. I love it, but the 964 series is NOT for the faint of heart or the budget oriented.

I think the biggest problem is probably the Freudenberg dual mass flywheels, simply because I've read several posts about previous owners needing them replaced and the repair isn't cheap. In my opinion, even if the Freudenberg seems good and you need a clutch job, that is the time to put the a new flywheel in. I wouldn't go out of my way and do it just because there is a risk, I would only replace it if it failed or I needed a new clutch. The worst case scenario that I've come across occurs when someone has a clutch job done, and then 2000 miles later the Freudenberg fails, requiring all the work to be redone. The typical fix is either a switch to a LUC or a switch to a single mass (usually light weight) unit with a chip that can accomadate the change properly. The more reliable LUCs became standard sometime in 1992. On the other hand, I've also read posts about people using the Freudenbergs well into VERY high mileage. Roland Kunz (an expert on p-cars) has stated that the Freudenberg failures are likely caused by racing and/or very hard driving. In my opinion, it's sort of a crap shoot with the Freudenberg...it may very well already be replaced on a car you're looking at. Checking records and serial numbers on these cars is VERY, VERY important. KNOW WHAT YOU'RE BUYING AND GETTING INTO!!

As far as the cylinder leakage problem goes, it was a problem but how severe a problem is difficult to determine. I used Bruce Anderson's book as a guide and was able to purchase a car with the cylinder head leakage problems addressed at the factory (my car was built in early Feb. of 1991, and it was roughly 150 production units from the engine modifications...so mine was one of the early ones, and there are no leaks). When I was looking at 964s, leakage (if any) was usually non-existant or limited. If I found a "leaker" it was often due to seals leaking on cars approaching or exceeding 100K miles. This is not uncommon on any car. I've looked at a TON of 964s and leakage was prevalent only on the higher mileage models. Either Porsche fixed these under warranty or the problem is overblown. I can't honestly tell you how serious the problems really are. The fix, if you have this problem, is almost a complete overhaul ($$$$$$$$$$$) unless you can get Porsche to assist you (not really likely almost 10 years after the cars inception).

The distributor is a dual distributor that is belt driven. Porsche originally had a problem with the belt driving the secondary distributor breaking. Symptoms can be as mild as a loss of power to extreme detonation that can, in the right (or perhaps a better word would be wrong) conditions, blow a hole in the top of the pistons. Most people seem to suffer either a slight loss of power or some knocking, and I've never personally seen or heard of someone blowing holes in their pistons, but there is no doubt in my mind that this has happened. It isn't uncommon for the dual distributor to fail and the owner to be unaware of it. The "fix" is to install the vent kit (Ozone created by arcing in the distributor chamber is believed to cause the belts to fail prematurely) that costs about $15.00. Any decent P-car mechanic could install it in less than 1/2 hour. It's an easy job. If the belt fails, you need to buy a remanufactured unit or have it repaired.

Is the 964 a worse car than any of it's Porsche forebearers? I kind of doubt it. The SC's have problems with studs, chain tensioners, poor AC/ventilation, pop off valves, not to mention the normal problems caused by age. The newer Carreras can have valve guide problems, and if they have a 915 transaxle may need some costly repairs. Every car made always has it's own set of problems in my opinion.

Is the 964 (or for that matter any 911) worse than any of the Japanese cars? I doubt that too. I bought an '85 MR2 that turned into the biggest money pit I've ever owned several years ago. I ended up doing a top end overhau at 90K, the AC failed, the electrical system needed to be overhauled. The MR2 was supposedly a "cheap" car...until you end up paying the prices Toyota wants for replacement parts...damn near ANY old Porsche is cheap by comparison! When I bought my Porsche I traded in a Dodge Stealth RT/TT (Dodge's relabelling of a Mitsubishi 300GT VR4). If you want to talk about unreliable and costly, look at anywhere from $4000-$8000 for a transmission repair (swap out only, no parts available...even for oil leaks), engines that like to spin their bearings at about 80K-100K miles which often costs $3000, and since the car is impossible to work on you get the added feature of paying premiums for labor on a car that's depreciating so rapidly in value you'ld be better off parting it out than repairing it.

My take is that ALL cars have their own set of risks. The 964 WILL be more costly to work on (more difficult, 12 sparks instead of 6, parts prices are higher), but in my opinion the added power and performance, not to mention creature comforts (like AC that actually DOES something) is worth the money.

As far as 964s go, the later the model year, the better. Call up several independent p-car mechanics and get their impressions. I did that and my results were really sort of inconclusive, probably based on the experience of the mechanics.

Hope this helps,

Bill Wagner

Previous post is on the mark. I've had my '90 for almost two years and I'm happy as a clam. Having had experience with older models over the last 18yrs., I'm prepared to tackle some portion of the maintenance and repairs.
The only problemns I've had are minor..clutch pedal pin, air blower, DME relay and that's about it. Car's got 101k on it and runs wonderfully. There are some oil seepage spots but no puddles. I'd expect that from the mileage. It gets 25 to the gallon and drives well. I checked to see that the clutch and flywheel were done prior to purchase and that was 32k miles ago.
If anything, a car with high miles either had the clutch done or had been driven gently for its life.
Go for it, enjoy the ride.

Wow! Be careful not to be scared away by the previous posts. Your best bet is to get the latest 964 you can. I have a 1994 C2 and have had NO problems what-so-ever. By the 93 model year, literally all of the items listed above had been addressed by the factory (flywheel, distrib belt and vent, etc). I consider it the best of both worlds, it retains classic 911 styling with all of the best and most refined mechanicals and creature comforts. Even with an earlier one, as long as the upgrades have been done, it is a very reliable car. Also, the car is relatively easy to work on (compared to 993's) for routine maintenance.

BTW, yes. . .it does have 2 distributors, 2 coils, and 12 spark plugs. . .and goes like stink!!!

Go for it. . .you won't be disappointed.

One point that has not been mentioned is initial purchase price. There is a big jump in price from the Carrera to the 964. Last November I seriously considered two 964s: a 1990 with 30K miles for $33K and a 1991 with 48K miles for $34K. I bought a 1988 Carrera with 60K miles for $17.5K.

I agree with the above posts. I have a 92 911 C-4. The C-4 is perfect for me...gives me great security on all roads and all weather conditions while traveling briskly. I traveled 10 hours in complete rain and the 911 was stuck to the pavement...provided me the confidence and the security I needed. I perform the majority on the maintenance tasks and I am not mechanical. I tackle oil, gear oil, brake fluid changes, and this summer will perform valve adjustment. I've modified the airbox, muffler system, and installed a chip...great auto and report no problems of ownership. Several years ago I thought I would update and purchase a 993, However I am so satisfied with the 92 C-4 that I can not justify the additional price. As always buy the latest 911 that fits your pocketbook. Jim V.

964 gurus: Please explain the Hindenberg, er I mean, Freudenberg clutch. Thank you.


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Doug
'81 SC Coupe (aka: "Blue Bomber")
Canada West Region PCA
members.home.net/zielke/911SC.htm

Hello

#1 Street Porsche with twin plug heads, Dual distributor was the 1955 356 1500 cc Carrera.

I had the luck to help an very good mechanic who works on them on regulary basis. An 10 000 km Service is around 2000 $, 20% of it where for parts. You rremove the distributors from the head renew the points and go to a distributor service to set them perfect. We swap them to a special made Bosch trigger unit but purists like to have it 100% original.

Well since then Porsche made some improvments on the maintance division.

Some cars are a bit mor friendly.

Well the 964 is a very cheap and easy to maintain car compared to an Ferrari and the Ferrari isn´t much faster only mouch faster looking and louder.

If you compare it with a Vette or an Alante. I n germany to replace the Vette digital cluster is 2000 $ while you leave 4000,- for an Alante Plasma unit. And GM Delco gives no waranty if the damn thing is dead several weeks later. Wanna know other supercar prices ? 1990 Honda CRX headlight unit 600 $, temperatursensor for instrument 50$
Or just try to change both batteries from an GMC Diesel Van.

If you would like to give your german an try then follow that:
http://home.germany.net/101-232905/kaufb6.htm
Grüsse

Well, I'm pretty new to this board, but of all the 964 owners on the board right now, I'd guess that I'm having the most serious troubles - broken head stud (i.e. see my post Broken head bolt & in denial!), possible leaky head-to-cylinder seal, and now some cv "clunk" - I'll say this:

THIS IS THE COOLEST DAMN CAR I HAVE EVER HAD!!

While having some problems now, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind, whatsoever, that I will fix her - and fix her "right." I will make her better than she was before. After buying the car 2 years ago with about 26.5K miles, and putting on about 14K more trouble-free since then, most of which was in the past 6 months, I had zero troubles until a few months ago. Then... all hell broke loose! Believe me, I have agonized about the problems. But, I have been reading everything I can get my hands on, researching as many websites as I can find, and talking to as many experienced Porsche people - including many of the fine folks on the board here, though only virtually - parts counter guys, mechanics, machinists, etc. who didn't tell me to shut up. It's been great. I've learned tons. In my opinion, the 964 is simply nothing short of an awesome machine. Period. Yes, it may have some intrinsic shortcomings, but I would say they are only shortcomings as compared to later descendants whose design and manufacture benefited from the previous. For that, a little respect is due. I'm almost at the point where I don't want any other car - truck, maybe - in my driveway. It seems to me that picking a car is kind of like picking a woman - since you're going to be spending a lot of time with only that one, and it's going to cost you a lot more money than you expected anyway, you might as well try to get the best looking and performing one (matches your expectations) your wallet and Visa card can afford.

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Steve
'89 C4

Well, I logged 550 miles in my '92 C2 today, so my impressions of this car are very fresh. ;-)

I had several 20 minute stretches at triple digit speeds (yes, there is *something* good about living in the midwest--no traffic on the rural interstate on a Wednesday afternoon) during which the car was rock solid, resposnsive, and still returned 26 m.p.g. I love this car--it is comfortable without being soft, modernized without losing its character, and much faster than your old SC--but retaining its classic looks. I don't know what else you could expect from a 911.

As others have pointed out, most of the problems with the early production 964s are long solved by now, and while maintenance costs are a bit higher than earlier 911s, the difference is not significant, IMHO--and well worth it for the joy the car will bring.

Good luck!

O.K. There is plenty of technical info above but not much in the way of driving impressions. I'm an early-car owner/lover. I've driven all 911 models at one time or another. I'd definitely recommend the 964 to 911 purists. I could drive this car blindfolded and tell you it's a 911. Yet it is more modern and easy to live with day-in day-out. I love the improved torsional stiffness over the pre-89 chassis. The 964 Cabriolet is damn near as tight as the coupe and by far tighter than any other convertible I've ever driven. (And that is a BIG list.) It's even tighter than many coupes from unnamed asian manufacturers. The power steering is helpful without being intrusive or even noticeable for that matter. The damn things can even defrost a window!

Better throttle response than anything from 74 to 89. Still has classic 911 looks. I'm telling you if you drive a pre-90 911 now, you can jump right into one of these and not miss a beat. You'll feel right at home.

They are heavier but don't feel heavy at all. The C-4 has kind of an Audi Quattro handling dynamic to it that sort of takes a little of the fun out of it but inspires huge confidence when the roads get snowy or wet.

I really feel the earlier 911 hardcore "purists" should include the 964 in the group. I know that statement will get me kicked out of the club but so be it. These cars aren't getting a fair shake. I think I started feeling this way when the 996 came out. It made me realize how much the air cooled cars really had in common.

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Tyson Schmidt
72 911 Cabriolet

Here are my responses to some of the posts I've seen:

Mike Feinstein:

I'm not trying to scare anyone away from buying a 964...I bought one being fully aware of it's shortcomings. Based on my own I research deemed them to be no worse than anything else. I just think the problems with ANY car should be highlighted. The 964s get a bad wrap. In a recent issue of Panorama, someone asked Bruce Anderson which 911 to buy... a 964 or a late 80s Carrera. He recommended the 964. Like I've stated many times before, it, like any car, has it's problems, but what car doesn't?

Decolliber:
In my area (N. Virginia) you couldn't touch ANY recent 911 (recent in my opinion is 10-15 years) for that price. You're a lucky guy to have picked up ANY recent 911 for that price. In this area that would have been pushing $25K-30K!

Doug Ziekle:
How 'bout them rubber centered units on the older cars? Need I say more? How 'bout them studs busting on SCs. How 'bout them valve guides leaking on Carreras.


EVERY high performance car I've owned has had it's idiosynchrasies, and they cost money to fix, whether you do it yourself or not. It really doesn't matter which 911 variant you buy, they'll have some types of problems just like any other car. I'm sort of a tightwad when it comes to money and if I thought ANY 911 was an unreliable piece of junk, I wouldn't bother buying one. I looked at and considered SCs, Carreras, and 964s. I bought a 964 but I think I would have been happy with any of them. They're all good cars, in my opinion! That, by the way, is not a slam against the even older cars...there just aren't that many to be found any more.

Good Luck,

Bill Wagner

How does the 964 C2 driving experience (acceleration, handling, driveability, and braking) compare to that of the 993 C2?

I have always loved the 964s.
As already said I too think that they are the best compromise of modern looks and the legendary shape of a 911.
Every model 911 ever produced has had its' querks. The 964 is no different. The only difference is the cost of the epairs on such a late model car. If you can afford the maintanance and the car in question has had the problems fixed then shoot, go for it.
I would be cautious when looking for a 2.7 if it didn't have timecerts, or a SC from Cali. with the old dilvar headstuds, or a real high mileage carrera without a top end job. Same, same... the only overall difference is the cost involved.
The C2/4s are a modern car, they have all of the guishy stuff some purists, old farts, etc. loathe. Whatever suits yer fancy.
I love 'em though.
But for $20 grand less I love my SC too!!

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Leland Pate

___79 SC Targa

Tcampbell asked how the 964 stacks up against the 993.

Opinions such as these are very subjective, I own a 964, and have had the opportunity to drive a variety of 993s ('96 cab, '96 Targa, '95 Coupe, and a '97 C2S), so I'll offer mine.

I'll begin by stating that the 993 is, overall a better, more refined car.

When I started shopping, I'd researched a lot and pretty much decided to purchase a 993; but I wanted to try out a variety of Porsches, to keep my mind open to what the other cars had to offer. I drove an '87 (had read all the stuff about how these were the last of the "real' 911s). I drove a Boxster (my friend owned one at the time. Lots of fun to drive). I also drove a 996, fantastic car (subjective opinion, I know this isn't a popular conception on this board). 964s were fairly hard to find, but I saw one advertised, so I decided to check it out.

I was very impressed with the car, I was quite surprised at how quick it was. The car was in very nice shape; I decided I needed to make some comparisons that very day, while the memory was fresh. I popped over to the local Porsche dealer (only a couple of miles from home), and test drove a 996 and a 993.

I found the 993 and 964 felt and drove very similar, while the 996 was clearly a step beyond in performance, handling, and comfort (and braking, whoa! Great brakes!). I decided that the 996 was the car to have, so I'd buy the 964 now, and trade up to the 996 later, if I hadn't been so taken with the 996, I'd probably have gone with the 993. AS it stood, the relatively small improvements made by the 993 over the 964 didn't seem worth the $15,000 premium. That was about 3 years ago, I've been disappointed to note that the 996 and Boxster don't seem to be built of as stern materials as the older cars, so I'm planning on keeping the 964.

Had a chance last year to drive the 97 C2S, the owner was curious to try a 964, so we switched cars. He actually thought my car might be quicker accelerating than his (I suspect that the varioram smooths the power delivery out in his car, so you don't get that kick at 4000 rpms like in mine fooled him into thinking so). I didn't feel that his seemed any quicker than mine, though. The ride is noticeably nicer in the 993, this may not seem to be a big performance point, but I think that it's a terrific improvement, and will lead to a more confident driving experience.

The 993 was a development of the 964, the 964 was quoted by Porsche as having something like 85% new as compared to the previous 911, the 993 was quoted as being something like 35% new over the 964. The rear suspension was redesigned as a multilink set up, maintenance costs were reduced by employing hydraulic valve lash something or another, and the exterior experienced a major redesign. I believe that these are the primary differences between the two models.

Overall, I think the 964 is a terrific car; yes, the 993 is better, but in small increments, and is very similar car over all. I'm keeping mine (though I do consider trading into a 993, I just don't want to give up hope that Porsche won't get it together with the new cars). Also, my wife is bound and determined that we keep this car, she's become very attached to it, and wants to keep it forever.

Chuck

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http://home.earthlink.net/~cgrieb/index.html

I just traded my 88 for a 90 C2 with all the fixes. All i can say is drive it and see for your self. The C2 in my opinion compared to the 88 is night and day. Faster, feels more planted, sounds awsome, and has all the trimmings. Also drove a C4 today, again totally solid, a bit 'duller' but fantastic never the less. Go drive one and see. You won't be dissapointed