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-   -   Family member attacks thermostat: BAD NEWS! (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/387043-family-member-attacks-thermostat-bad-news.html)

3.2 CAB 01-13-2008 10:34 AM

It does not look like anyone is wanting to say, you have to drop the engine, to make the repair. I know that there is not much room, where you are needing to work, and an open flame would really be a true fire hazard. If you can determine that you do have some of the broken stud still sticking up from the surface, you might be able to get to it with small vice-grips, if not, I think that the engine has to go. Once it is dropped, you can do the fix properly. I would first try left-hand drill bits, if it does not go with them, then use an broken stud/bolt extractor. You should have plenty of time to get the proper parts to replace the broken stud. You asked how to install the new stud without damaging the new studs threads. You would want to use two nuts threaded onto the new stud, one butted up against the other, in order to be able to fully install the new stud. One nut and a jamb nut, so it locks the two nuts in place, then you can tighten the stud, after you tighten the new stud, you can then remove the jamb nut. After you get the jamb nut loose, remove it, then remove the other nut, the repair would now be complete, except for re-installing the engine. I am sorry, but I can't see that you can get this done, if the stud is flush with the surface, without dropping the engine. If you don't have any special drills, bits, etc. that you can get in there with, a drop would be needed. If you do have something that you can get to the stud with a left handed bit, that would be great, and use the best size one available, and be centered to avoid damage to the internal threads. Like I said, I don't know what specialty tools you have available, and I don't know your skill level. I wish there was an easy way to do this, but I don't think it is going to be easy, whichever way you go. Hopefully, I was making myself clear about this. Good luck!! Tony.

gsmith660 01-13-2008 10:34 AM

Since it has 1\4 inch left a machinist would put a nut on it and a quick tack on top and out the broken stud would come if you put vise grips on it and booger up the threads it could still be done just not as easy. Good luck

Bobboloo 01-13-2008 10:47 AM

I would still try welding to remove it. You are least likely to do additional damage. I've done this several times, It's quick and easy. As long as the stud isn't broken off below the surface this will work.

If the stud is broken absolutely flush then first put on a large washer with a small hole the size of the stud. Tack the washer to the stud. Then put a nut on top of the washer and tack the nut to the washer. The heat from the welding will break the bond of any thread locker. Just turn it out before it cools.

3.2 CAB 01-13-2008 10:47 AM

It took me a bit to get my first response typed, and I now see that you say you have about 1/4th in sticking out. That is GREAT NEWS!!!!! You should be able to get the smallest size of name brand, Vice-grips locked on the remaining piece of the stud which is sticking up past the surface. A lot of times when bolts or studs are twisted off, the remaining portion can be a real bear to get out, due to the excessive torquing on the threads, and it will actually be very tight in there due to thread stretching, and it just won't turn out of the hole, without mechanical help. Take your time, but it really does sound like you ducked the bullet, if you do have that much threads still showing. Good luck!! Tony.

Bobboloo 01-13-2008 10:57 AM

1/4 " Your golden. You can try the vise grips but if they don't work just weld a nut on and it will be out in minutes.

dshepp806 01-13-2008 01:02 PM

Just in fromworking on it,..no luck thus far...

3.2CAB: sorry if I was missleading,..at first. She easily has about 1/4" on the broken stud moving (possibly a bit more)....now you have me wondering about a very basic question:::::::::::::These damned studs do come out CCW=loose, right?


I tried every single vicegrip I had but could not get it to turn......the old nut will thread down over the stud but will NOT tighten at bottom,..just spin around...guess the threads are well buggered now.....

Damned good to see a few responses here from the "in the know" crowd,...so many thanks, fellas....I felt completely defeated upon dragging into the house,..but now feel cautiously optomistic after reading all of you guys' posts..
This group rocks!

I don't weld but the suggestion of tacking on a nut sure sounds like it would work and easily......
Then just use a 10MM socket to take her out, right? lefty -loosy,..right?
Does there still exist a fire hazard with welding in this area? How would you minimize the hazard (fire or others) so that one could execute a brief tack on a 10 MM nut? Seems like there would be several things to protect from a healthy (hot) spark (rubber, plastic, cloth,etc.)

Is this the only decision I have left, short of engine drop,..to weld, that is?

Thanks for hanging in there with me (Bobboloo,gsmith,3.2CAB,Chuck, Duke and JW)

I'll look for further commentary from the group......

Hopefully the shop is in agreement with all here.....Guess I could call them next and see what they say about it. Or consider having a friend's contact with welding gear drop by the house.....(cheaper)


Thanks guys,...and best to you all,..

dshepp806 01-13-2008 01:56 PM

A friend offered to bring over (tomorrow) his stud extraction set for my use....says it's worth a shot (he's a T-wrench!) Some type of socket arrangment with internal bearings that grip?
Any commnets from you guys on this partiular tool in this particular case...?


Still considering the tack welding of a blot idea,..it seems so logical.........

...now, this torch thing back there,..I gotta; think about that one,..

however it sounds like I may need heat,...unless (as someone mentioned), the heat generation of the weld spark will provide locktight heating "affect"...

oh boy,..tomorrow's another day......and waiting for parts!

Comments welcome

stevemfr 01-13-2008 02:12 PM

The heat from the welding will be more than enough to have a loctite dissolving effect. Make sure whatever you do, you cover the thermostat hole to keep the internals clean (sorry for stating the obvious, just tryin' ta help).

And don't work up an ulcer over this, t'aint worth it (although I can understand your aggravation). And no beating on family members... ;-)

dshepp806 01-13-2008 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevemfr (Post 3702115)
The heat from the welding will be more than enough to have a loctite dissolving effect. Make sure whatever you do, you cover the thermostat hole to keep the internals clean (sorry for stating the obvious, just tryin' ta help).

And don't work up an ulcer over this, t'aint worth it (although I can understand your aggravation). And no beating on family members... ;-)

No worries, mate. Won't beat on any family members. I DO appreciate your help.

I will certainly pay attention to covering that hole! I had her well covered today while attempting stud removal.....maybe I'll be able to just leave the thermostat inplace BUT ROTATED AWAY from the stud when getting the tack weld done,..(when I get to that step).....

(sure would like to hear a bed time story from J.Walker as to all related commentary to my quagmire...)

Best,

gsmith660 01-13-2008 04:38 PM

I would call a guy with a mobile welder 30 sec including setup to put a good tack in there and its out.

dshepp806 01-13-2008 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsmith660 (Post 3702408)
I would call a guy with a mobile welder 30 sec including setup to put a good tack in there and its out.

That's what I'm seeing, too.

As to this process, gsmith,..any items to be aware of? Type of welder (weld) , gas concerns/precautions,? etc? ...?...I know nothing of this process,..I know that I'd damned well cover up as much as possible down and around the stud area...is there a way (technique?) to contain the outward sparking during welding....? I'd call a pro to do it but would want to be aware that he's versed in welding around the top of the engine...

Do those sparks maintain their heat for a while? Or does they dissipate quickly?

Now I'm having reservations of trying the extractor first and (with further bad luck) twist the damned stud off below the case level.......seems like it would be safer with the heat application to the Locktight coincident with a newly attached removal device (bolt!).....finish with torque. Nothing breaks..

Thanks, again.

Best,

gsmith660 01-13-2008 05:31 PM

The welder should be able to protect the area with fire blanket be sure and ask him about it as for weld type the best would be MIG he could even use flux core as it will just go in the trash when you get it out.

dshepp806 01-13-2008 05:50 PM

Thanks gsmith,..I'll keep you guys updated. I think I'll first check in with my P-wrench and get his take....One thing I've been successful at so far is knowing the difference between "taking care of maintenance" and "needing a P-wrench".......I don't want to frick that up..I trust the guy. On the other hand, I DO love taking care of much of the work myself, learning along the way,..saving significant amounts of $$,...I just hate to CREATE additional significant amounts of $$$ (like snapping this problematic stud beneath the caseline)...

...trying to be careful here.

Is it sufficient to tack only one side of the nut?

Thanks,

gsmith660 01-13-2008 06:38 PM

They will thread the nut on and weld right down in the middle welding the stud to the nut and then you will have a bolt that you can put a wrench on.

Fritz Peyerl 01-13-2008 06:53 PM

stud removing
 
If you get a welder to apply heat and weld the nut to the stud, Please make sure you disconect your battery. Do to the welding current, you could fry some electronic.
ALWAYS DISCONNECT BATTERY WHEN WELDING ON CAR

Fritz

gsmith660 01-13-2008 07:49 PM

Thats true disconnect your cd unit from the harness and unplug your 14 pin also and have the welder put his ground as close to the stud as possible possibly the engine lifting eye on the back of the engine. Thanks Fritz for pointing that out you would think I would point that out as all the welding I did on my car I fried the stereo. search on here for welding to see what all needs to be disconnected.

dshepp806 01-14-2008 04:06 PM

Haven't had really good luck on my search attempts for the information....

...I'm thinking of first attempting use of a stud removal tool.... My only concern is that there won't be any application of heat first,..I've been told (good source) that there's no Locktite in there on this stud but still am envisioning snapping the bloody thing off FLUSH with the damned case.....

Would this selection be more prone to my vision? Or is the same "snapping" vision still possible making use of a tac'd nut to the stud? I would guess the BIG difference is in application of HEAT?
Is this correct?
Hell,..I guess anything could happen (realistically)..

STill gotta call my wrench to get his take (piece of mind)....

Any further "welding awareness/ points of interest", while on top of a installed Porsche engine would be welcomed...

...especially as to the electrical connections/connectors,..guess you would totally isolate the DME box,.........at minimum? I understand disconnecting the battery......and ground placement for the welder......

...sounds like one had really have a pro do this,..right,..the first time.............

Thanks,

gsmith660 01-14-2008 04:26 PM

yes application of heat does many things breaks down locktite loosens corrosion expands metal easing thread tension. Just be aware that if you go the stud removal route I personally have not had good luck with those at the very least it will ruin the threads so a nut may or may not go on to go the welded route and it usually ends up with a drill and a timesert the welded nut is just too easy if you have a welder. I have not had a problem with breaking studs on my 911 but on my small blocks it has been a different story with previous mechanics using grade 3 bolts when they should have been 5 or 8.

dshepp806 01-14-2008 04:32 PM

Damned good point regarding the threads,..guess that would be quite an important consideration here,..thanks AGAIN!

patkeefe 01-14-2008 04:41 PM

Doyle, sent my 2 cents worth.
Good luck!
Pat


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