Pelican Parts Forums

Pelican Parts Forums (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/)
-   Porsche 911 Technical Forum (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/)
-   -   Family member attacks thermostat: BAD NEWS! (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/387043-family-member-attacks-thermostat-bad-news.html)

vash 01-14-2008 05:13 PM

doyle. kudos for keeping your cool with the kid. (sorta?) well kudos for not going berzerko on the young fella.

if you have .25 inches poking out, i think you are in luck. a good friend of mine snapped an exhaust stud. after crying into our beer, we attacked it like men possessed. our first attempt was with one of those "bolt out" sockets from sears. maybe $40 for the smaller set. one of the smaller tools fit over the stud. it bit, and i''ll be damned...IT CAME OUT! i think there was one smaller sized socket that will fit the 6mm. like chuck said, the thing isnt tensioned anymore, therefore it is loose. if you could grab it with one of the "bolt outs" i think you will be home free.

jthwan22 01-14-2008 05:23 PM

Can you get a Dremal tool in there with a cut off wheel? If so, cut a deep slot on top of the stud and back it out with flat head screw driver.

jwetering 01-14-2008 09:49 PM

You know, an engine drop really is not all that hard to do - downright easy compared to a lot of jobs. Plus you said there was some oil leakage back there so you'll want to clean that up anyway. Plus the punk nephew will help you with the heavy lifting part of the job....I bet he'd really enjoy it. Very satisfying task. Getting the hoor back in can be a bit fiddly, but hey lesser men than you have done it.

I attended one or two pelican engine drop parties over the last few years, and with that I was fully confident in dropping an engine on my buddy's 88. Sure it went a little slow, but it was pretty easy and very productive because we could really get at a bunch of little jobs which would be difficult or impossible to do otherwise.

The alternative is to remove all of the intake system. We did this too when we replaced a fuel line once. If you go slow, take photos or notes and label your wiring looms it's simply a matter of unpeeling the onion.

One thing I learned when we did the fuel line job - doing jobs with the engine in the car, fully decked with intake system is false economy. The level of effort working blind is much higher than the level of effort to drop the motor.

If I was in your neck of the woods I'd be there tonight to help you drop that motor.

Good luck.

patkeefe 01-15-2008 05:32 AM

Doyle:
Is it possible to get a photo of what's left of the stud sticking out of the case?
Pat

dshepp806 01-15-2008 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vash (Post 3704751)
doyle. kudos for keeping your cool with the kid. (sorta?) well kudos for not going berzerko on the young fella.

if you have .25 inches poking out, i think you are in luck. a good friend of mine snapped an exhaust stud. after crying into our beer, we attacked it like men possessed. our first attempt was with one of those "bolt out" sockets from sears. maybe $40 for the smaller set. one of the smaller tools fit over the stud. it bit, and i''ll be damned...IT CAME OUT! i think there was one smaller sized socket that will fit the 6mm. like chuck said, the thing isnt tensioned anymore, therefore it is loose. if you could grab it with one of the "bolt outs" i think you will be home free.

Thanks, Vash, for your comments and story...I sure hope you're right as to using the stud removal tool.....

..at the risk of sounding foolish: what, exactly, is "loose"? (from relieved tension).....this part I'm trying to extract,..the one that seems far from Loose...? Are you guys telling me that the NUT tensions the threads down in the case (ie: no attached nut+no tension)? Help me out here....trying to learn...

I hope I'll be able to come back to this forum with those CAPS stating I got it out!

Thanks again for your input...

Best,

dshepp806 01-15-2008 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwetering (Post 3705224)
You know, an engine drop really is not all that hard to do - downright easy compared to a lot of jobs. Plus you said there was some oil leakage back there so you'll want to clean that up anyway. Plus the punk nephew will help you with the heavy lifting part of the job....I bet he'd really enjoy it. Very satisfying task. Getting the hoor back in can be a bit fiddly, but hey lesser men than you have done it.

I attended one or two pelican engine drop parties over the last few years, and with that I was fully confident in dropping an engine on my buddy's 88. Sure it went a little slow, but it was pretty easy and very productive because we could really get at a bunch of little jobs which would be difficult or impossible to do otherwise.

The alternative is to remove all of the intake system. We did this too when we replaced a fuel line once. If you go slow, take photos or notes and label your wiring looms it's simply a matter of unpeeling the onion.

One thing I learned when we did the fuel line job - doing jobs with the engine in the car, fully decked with intake system is false economy. The level of effort working blind is much higher than the level of effort to drop the motor.

If I was in your neck of the woods I'd be there tonight to help you drop that motor.

Good luck.


jwetering: I understand your point as to engine drop....It's just that I'm in a place (for now) that doesn't have any work area, much less a nice garage. There are other places I probably could go do this but I don't think I'll drop it until I've attended one the parties you referred to! I'm sure that'll be a BIG learning experience and will boost the confidence level. I know this group has taught me more than I ever could imagine....the (you) people are great.

Very kind of you to offer your assistance....I wish you were in my neck of the woods...

My best,

gsmith660 01-15-2008 12:37 PM

When you torque a nut you put force on the stud and the threads bite into each other when the stud broke it should have relieved that torque and made the stud somewhat loose in the block if it is not loose or doesn't turn with a moderate amount of force from you then it is either galled (self welded itself to the case) or has corrosion buildup making it hard to turn if it is galled a stud remover wont have enough bite to turn it out and the only way to get it out will be drill and tap if it is corrosion then soaking it down with Kroil penetrating fluid and heat will break it up and loosen the stud. Whatever you do dont force it as it will just make a already weak stud break off at the block.

dtw 01-15-2008 12:41 PM

There may be loctite applied to the stud - have you put a torch on it yet? Train a torch on the stud until a wisp of smoke puffs up, that's the loctite going up in smoke with a trademark smell, can't miss it. After that let it cool and hose it with some more penetrant and it should come out quick'n'easy.

dshepp806 01-15-2008 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patkeefe (Post 3705470)
Doyle:
Is it possible to get a photo of what's left of the stud sticking out of the case?
Pat

Pat,...thanks for your PM,..very helpful. My camera is loaned out to someone this week but I'll beg, borrow or steal one shortly and make an attempt at getting you a pic or 2.

For now, my replacement parts are on order and schedule to arrive this Friday.
I'm not touching anything until then....trying to be patient (just wait for all the stuff to get here), provide good prep (I know this is anal but I shoot the area with PB Blaster before I go to work and again 12 hours later...I'll be doing this everyday until D-Day...will probably give the remaining stud a physical tap or 2, as well), and look towards budget parameters for worst case condition (The car has a crossthreaded #1 plug that needs a cert...this was discovered after I bought the car (there's a thread floating on this one from a year ago!). I had planned to get this repaired later this year (drop, of course), although she's running quite perfect...sux that my frequent spark plug changeouts only require 5 plugs! In any case, for now, I still plan to take the stud removal route...)

If there's no tension,.....and the tool grips like all hell,.......it seems that the only positive factor ABSENT from taking the tool removal route would be NO heat application......maybe standing a greater chance of SNAPPING her off flush..on the other hand: maybe she turns, albeit with friction....

At least I can easily get to the stud (no drop required) to attempt it......won't cost me a dime either. The mobile welder guy will charge something and I'm required to be comfortable that he won't frick something up,...there seems to be some innate apprehension about taking a welder to the top of the engine while it's inplace......I know many of you are snickering at this apprehension,..and that's because you guys have done it and know what the hey you're doing...

jwetering makes a good point about sometimes getting the bull by the horns.........I've been in a funk for many days now thinking about it. The best docs out there are on this forum,..most serving up great medicines.


.........put that lime in the coconut, drink it all up........

I wish all of you were nearby, as I'd buy the beer for the night.

BTW: what's the going rate (spans) for R & R on my 1989, 3.2L engine,..no other work being done? Better yet,..what SHOP labor TIME would be common for just the R & R portion?

anywaze,..time to go apply some penetrate for the nite....


The removal tools my friend brought over says 100-6 on one and 100-8 on the other...I would assume the '100-6' to be the one?

I'll work on those pics for you Patrick,...thanks, again!!

Many thanks to all of you out there,.........

dshepp806 01-15-2008 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtw (Post 3706300)
There may be loctite applied to the stud - have you put a torch on it yet? Train a torch on the stud until a wisp of smoke puffs up, that's the loctite going up in smoke with a trademark smell, can't miss it. After that let it cool and hose it with some more penetrant and it should come out quick'n'easy.

That's some cool info on the wisp......I wouldn't have known that.......

Think I may get my friends hand held MAPP torch and just see what it feels like in the area of interest....That way I'll have a better gauge (feel) on what all needs to be OUT OF THE WAY so as not to damage anything.....any fuel concerns/observations as to FIRE,.... while doing this...

I'll plan on having heat on-hand this Friday...............I'll practice with no fire first!!!!!!!!!

Thanks!

Best,

dshepp806 01-15-2008 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsmith660 (Post 3706293)
When you torque a nut you put force on the stud and the threads bite into each other when the stud broke it should have relieved that torque and made the stud somewhat loose in the block if it is not loose or doesn't turn with a moderate amount of force from you then it is either galled (self welded itself to the case) or has corrosion buildup making it hard to turn if it is galled a stud remover wont have enough bite to turn it out and the only way to get it out will be drill and tap if it is corrosion then soaking it down with Kroil penetrating fluid and heat will break it up and loosen the stud. Whatever you do dont force it as it will just make a already weak stud break off at the block.

Got it...thanks for the explanation....

It appears that heat will be my friend this weekend,......

I'm sure hoping not to use too much force.............I used a good bit of force with the failing vicegrip try but that force will be far short of the 1/2 " ratchet capabilities......available this weekend...

Part of me is beginning to say: WTF? If it breaks, it breaks..and the engine will go down to the ground.....I'm just not prepared to pay for it all just yet.....

Hell,..I've got to, at least, try here.

Thanks for clarity, gsmith.

My best,

dshepp806 01-15-2008 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtw (Post 3706300)
There may be loctite applied to the stud - have you put a torch on it yet? Train a torch on the stud until a wisp of smoke puffs up, that's the loctite going up in smoke with a trademark smell, can't miss it. After that let it cool and hose it with some more penetrant and it should come out quick'n'easy.

dtw: what is meant by "train a torch"?

OK,..stop after the wisp,...what if there's no locktite in there? No wisp? How long would you leave the flame on this stud (assuming no "wisp")?

Thanks again,

vash 01-15-2008 01:38 PM

doyle the tool i mentioned isnt "destructive". you can put it on, and give it a gentle twist to see if you will succeed.

think of a bolt as a spring, when you torque it down, what you are really doing is tensioning it, by making it stretch a tiny bit. so you snapped off the end, if it isnt bottomed out HARD, i think you can twist it out.

patkeefe 01-15-2008 01:50 PM

Doyle:
So let me get this straight...you put the lime in the coconut and drink them both together?

A screw is helical inclined plane, of the famous simple machine family. gsmith is precise in his assessment. In the case of a bolt, threads stretch the bolt when the nut is fastened, thus putting the bolt in tension. In the case of the stud, the stud must be anchored sufficiently in the parent metal, as it doesn't have an integral bolt head. What happens is the threadform deforms in the case, as it is the softer parent metal, and will "gall" the stud. In theory, one could "push down" on the stud, and if the threadform was elastic, the stud would lose its grip. In practice, this doesn't work very well, as the threads in the aluminum have probably already been tensioned into the plastic range (Bend a paper clip repeatedly to break it; just before it breaks, it goes into the "plastic range"). A little love tap with a small hammer won't hurt. This is also why we chase threads with a tap after these sort of events, to clean out the deformed threads.

Also, as gsmith mentioned, I use AeroKroil, and have found that PB Blaster works very well also. Even if you're not touching it or a few days, keep soaking that thing now.

Light reading for your downtime: http://www.boltscience.com/pages/glossary.htm

Pat

911nut 01-15-2008 01:55 PM

Doyle, Don't you have that car runnin' yet?:p This is what can happen when you let the apprentices work on your 911.
Do a partial engine drop. It's easy (crap, that's the very first thing I did when I got my SC and I hadn't wrenched on a car in 15 years). Having access to that stud is 90% of the battle. Once you can see and feel that stud clearly the way to removal will become apparent.

dtw 01-15-2008 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dshepp806 (Post 3706387)
dtw: what is meant by "train a torch"?

OK,..stop after the wisp,...what if there's no locktite in there? No wisp? How long would you leave the flame on this stud (assuming no "wisp")?

Thanks again,

Just means point the torch at the stud - you don't need anything hotter than propane. 10-20 seconds will be more than enough time. Again, you're not going to set anything on fire assuming you've gotten all your lines & hoses out of the way.

You're making this too difficult. Git'er done.

dshepp806 01-15-2008 02:31 PM

Pat: she will soak 2X daily until I have the time this weekend, with 4 light taps (2X) daily!!! Thanks for your explanation... I'll soak up the provided url while awaiting the weekend's arrival...Thanks for the info and support.

Vash: understood. I'm optimistic.

911nut: I plan on making some calls to attend some drop down projects (even driving, if necc.) Just trying to learn as much as possible.....I'm sure these upper "layers" will come with time....I've climbed much higher mountains and don't mind "working them angels" either,.... Something different about frikin up this P-car of mine. Hard to describe,.......makes me a bit cautious and VERY investigative, overly-inquisitive (on the NON-DOING side) and patient (in the end)...AND ::::I don't have oodles of available time to tinker endlessly (a great learning experience, I might add...).. I work (catiously) with what I've got......it'll get done. It is a tight area up top, with little room to work, with such processes as drilling, etc.....Out of curiosity, what added height, from (say) top of thermostat to the sound deading material, would one gain with a partial drop? (not to complicate anything, BTW...). Just a question....

dtw: Thanks again for your input....(as always)
"making it too difficult"? How's that? Too many questions? If so, I apologize. I'll frikin' "git'er done" (as you put it) in due time. I just want to know ALL of my options (and it's apparent that many have different takes on this) so as to make a staged plan.....I know I'm overly concerned about something that would be so simple to others, such as yourself. We all have our complexeties of challenge that is specific to the individual at bay. All of you guys' inputs are helpful at learning all the "nuances" of many things....I'm thankful to you and everyone else. No worries, cowboy,..I assure you it will "git done", in the end. And I (still) appreciate your observations.

I've love a good holostic process...

Thanks, again, to all of ya'........

Best,,

dtw 01-15-2008 04:37 PM

Ask all the questions you like, mate - that's what the board is for. It just sounds like you are getting psyched out.

You will overcome!!!

dshepp806 01-15-2008 04:42 PM

I'm getting psyched out at doing something wrong and not being fully prepared or studied for it...This forum is so helpful......


I will OC...thanks for you guys' patience, sharing and forbearance.

...tic-toc......

Best

gsmith660 01-15-2008 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dshepp806 (Post 3706376)
Got it...thanks for the explanation....

It appears that heat will be my friend this weekend,......

I'm sure hoping not to use too much force.............I used a good bit of force with the failing vicegrip try but that force will be far short of the 1/2 " ratchet capabilities......available this weekend...

Part of me is beginning to say: WTF? If it breaks, it breaks..and the engine will go down to the ground.....I'm just not prepared to pay for it all just yet.....

Hell,..I've got to, at least, try here.

Thanks for clarity, gsmith.

My best,

Somemore clarity you put a 1\2 inch rachet on that little bitty stud you are going to snap it off before you can blink I believe that is a 6 mm stud you can use a 1\4 inch rachet and get enough torque on that to back it out. Just experience talking from many years as a mechanic.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:30 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website


DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.