Any attorney out there.

[Guard Bum]

Moderator please allow me a little leeway here.

Just requesting a experienced opinion, does selling "AS IS" resolve the seller of all responsibility? Is there any accountability in specific misrepresentations made about the vehicle?

Just looking for a general opinion before I pursue any further. Thanks.

[Danny_Ocean]

I'm not an attorney, but I play one on TV:

From "uslegal.com": As-is is a term used in warranty law to disclaim the seller's liability for faults in the item sold. The buyer accepts the item in the present condition, whether the faults are apparent or not. "As-is" language clarifies that no written or verbal warranties were made to the buyer and is used to protect the seller. However, the seller cannot misrepresent the item or use fraud to induce the sale.

[TWork]

Generally, as-is is just that. If you were given an opportunity to look at the car and inspect or have a third party inspect on your behalf, then you're likely stuck with what you've got. However, if there's fraud or intentional misrepresentation then perhaps you may have something to pursue. Unfortunately, the car's value (and the associated misrepresentation) would have to be pretty substantial in order offset the cost of legal resolution. Without a solid papertrail, it becomes a battle of crediblity. If you think you've got something solid, perhaps try small claims court. Check with your local law schools as they often have clinics that assist with small claims issues.

Good luck,

T.

[RWebb]

pretty much

if it said as-is but he stuck a time bomb in it or he cut thru a brake line or something, then the disclaimer is not good

hope this was not a hurricane car...

[diverdan]

In California it won't cut it! Ask me how I know. Ever hear that it is illegal to sell a car in California with non-operative windshield wipers? "We used to help folks get cars from the dealers auction. On our sales agreement we would even write: "I realize that I may be buying a piece of junk."

Seems like the consumer has it made even in private party deals.

Diverdan

[3.2 CAB]

Is this about the 84 Targa, you recently bought on EBAY? If so, I don't have any good answers for you. Tony.

[Guard Bum]

Thanks all. Yes this about the 1984 Targa I recently purchased on EBAY. I broke all the rules and bought over the internet without a PPI. I have purchased several vehicles and motorcycles over from EBAY over the years with extremely good luck and was lured into a false sense of security.

Basically it is a sound car that I am going to enjoy owning down the road, but it was advertised with good electrical and good engine, no compression leak. $9000 later I will soon have the car they advertised. Broken engine studs, several damaged rockers, left cam shaft, clutch, and a very thorough rewiring effort under way now.

I am still pondering my legal recourse (if any) so i will refrain from naming the seller, but they do a lot of business over the internet and I will certainly name names later unless the situation changes.

Thanks to all for everything I have learned so far, wish I knew you a little earlier.

[MRM]

You might want to move this to the Off Topic Forum. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a lawyer or two, and a half dozen others who know more about sales than any lawyer.

The answer to your question is that it depends. It depends on a million variables that probably can't be summarized here. In general "as-is" is a complete disclamer of condition. However, a seller cannot knowingly make false representations and then say to the buyer that the terms of the sale are "as-is". State law might give you more protections.

The problem is that you have to prove the seller knew and deliberately defrauded you and that you did not know or have any reason to know the information was bad.

In other words, it is a defense to the claim to state that they honestly thought what they were saying was true and make you prove otherwise. Similarly, it is a defense to argue that you really did suspect the car had problems and you willingly took the risk of things going worse - you would have to prove different. That's a lot of time and trouble for $9,000, IMO.

Unless you could easily go through small claims court, I would recommend addressing the issue with the seller, making it clear that you will leave negative feedback on Ebay and will tell others of your experience (truthfully) if they don't make it right.

[Guard Bum]

MRM pretty well described my options as I see them as well. I attempted mediation through Square Trade (EBAY), but as expected the seller disavows any responsibility based on "AS IS". I think I am most pissed about the sellers attitude. I expect no resolution so I'll stop whining. Once all viable options are exhausted (about there) I'll post the details (truthfully) and move on. Thanks again all.

[porschenut]

The law is on the seller's side. Caveat emptor. PPI is mandatory.

[shbop]

Listen to MRM. He gave you sound advise. Lick your wounds, and move on.

[mhoffman]

As much as I hate folks who use deceptive practices to sell stuff (I got bagged BIG TIME with a used Mercedes once, but that was 10 years ago and I may be almost be over it...), as long as you have the car, you might as well make the best of it.

Consider the following: $9000 is not an unreasonable price for a running 911; given its age, you would probably be thinking about some sort of engine re-build before too long; lots of folks upgrade the cam shaft anyhow, and this gives you a good opportunity to do an proper build to have the engine combination you want; once you are done with the work you will have the major possible problems already taken care of.

I am not trying to make light of your situation- I'd be pissed too, but you might as well take the car you have and make it the car you want. A lot of the work needed that you have outlined is work needed that has been done by most of the folks here- maybe not all at once and immediately after purchasing what they thought was a "solid" car, but they are fairly common issues that occur sooner or later.

Meanwhile, post the seller's name and maybe what comes around will go around before to long for them.

As much as this situation sucks, they are still really neat cars and if there is any way for you to get the car back to a condition where it is "the car you always wanted" the essentials of that are there in that car...

Just trying to be helpful.

Matt

[boxster03]

If the seller states nothing or claims nothing then "As Is" will stand just as that "As Is" however, if the seller/dealer makes claims or statements pertaining to the item then "As Is" becomes modified and is no longer applicable.

[Guard Bum]

Here is the EBAY statement:

1984 Porsche 911 Targa Top
V6 (WP0EB0917ES161453)

please note: Although this vehicle
is listed as a previously sold on eBay, we
were foced to relist it because high bidder
did not have funds to pay for the car.

This is not a "LIKE NEW" or "SHOWROOM"
Condition car. It is in good mechanical shape
and at the price its a wonderfull value.


Great if you always wanted to play with
a Porsche on the Weekends!!!

The interior is clean; all in good condition.
There are no cracks in the dash. The seats are in
nice condition. The carpets are all in good shape.

All glass is good and power windows and mirrors
work perfectly without drag or sluggishness.

Mechanically, the engine and drive train work great.
The transmission shifts smoothly through all gears
(and reverse). Clutch is tight. Runs out great.

The compression is great. Doesn't leak oil;
both front and rear engine seal are totally dry.
Newer tires in excellent shape.

OVERALL CONDITION SUMMARY:

Exterior paint shows very nice and very clean, no dent or dings good
luster and shine. Some miscellaneous micro chips and or minor surface scratch
on bumper but nothing to take away from its nice presents. Interior
shows very nice, no rips or tears in interior, leather is clean and shows
very good, no abuse, very nice.


I expected some repairs; I understand the car is 23 years old. They also claimed in an email that there mechanic checked the car and found no major issues.

What was found was a car with crappy wiring and missing a complete section of the fuse box (the part that made the windows operate that they claimed worked so smoothly) and a noticeable exhaust leak ( 4broken engine studs all on passenger side), bad clutch, bad flywheel, damaged left cam, damage rocker arms and all of the rest of the stuf you have to do when you pull an engine. valve guides, gaskets, etc.... Also a good cleaning and some fresh paint.

I am happy with the interior and exterior of the car as described, only issue is mechancal.

What do you think?

[porschenut]

I think they misrepresented the car! Unfortunately, any legal remedies you might pursue would probably exceed the cost of repairing the car.

[3.2 CAB]

Matt, he already had the $13,000.00 sale price, plus I would imagine whatever expenses involved for the sale, and now it is $9,000.00 more!! I believe the total will be, $22,000.00 Now that really sucks.
Guard Bum, I will be sending you a PM shortly. Tony.

[RWebb]

You need to see a lawyer nearby. Find one that specializes in car sales - if you can. There will surely be someone in NoLa if not on the Miss. Gulf Coast.

The lawyer might cost you $9k or more, but might cost a lot less to get a refund. A letter saying he is about to file suit might do it. Also, if yo win, they will probably have to pay his fees.

Here are 2 important things:

First, if the car was not in MS then there is a choice of law issue. If it was in Calif. there are highly likely to be more consumer protections there than in MS. IF so, you'll want a firm with a Calif. office or a Calif. attorney most likely.

Second - The ad specifically states: "It is in good mechanical shape..." That conflicts with the "as-is" language. And it gives you a pretty good case. Conflicting language in as contract (which this is) will nearly also be held against the person who drew up the contract. It will usually be held in favor of a consumer also. State laws differ however. That is why you need to consult with a pro.

Saying there are non-lawyers who know more about legal issues than _any_ lawyer is like telling you to forget about your surgeon and to visit a shaman.

Look around and find yourself the right lawyer for this job.

[the]

I don't know how strong a case you would have, but to me it seems mediocre. I would have liked to have seen much more specific representations in the ad. Something like "original paint, no frame damage" when the car has obviously been wrecked.

They say the car is NOT like new or showroom, but is in "good" mechanical shape.

They also say "Mechanically, the engine and drive train work great.
The transmission shifts smoothly through all gears
(and reverse). Clutch is tight. Runs out great."

Did the car drive ok when you got it? Words saying the engine and drive train "work great," in the context of a 24 year old car, are not very specific.

"The compression is great." That one is specific. Did you test the compression? What were the numbers?

A VERY important practical point in considering whether to file a suit is whether the winner can recover his attys fees. Randy says the seller, if he loses, will "probably" have to pay the buyer's fees, but I don't know upon what that is based. The general rule is the opposite - attys fees usually aren't recoverable unless there is a contractual agreement for it, or a specific statute that allows it. In this case, those are unknowns. But, typically, a seller's contract is NOT going to have an attorney's fee provision that would cover this situation.

If you do contact a lawyer, be sure to ask if he thinks the fees would be recoverable. It's a major consideration in coming up with a strategy.

Consulting a lawyer isn't a bad idea, but you need to have a strategy and watch your costs. One good strategy is to pay him to send a simple demand letter, that's $300 well spent. After you get a response to the letter, you try to settle it, if you can't, you regroup and see where to go next.

[Laneco]

You're going to lose. Sorry...

They said the engine and transmission worked great. They didn't say all the headstuds were good, that it didn't have hidden broken bits, etc. "worked great" is a highly suggestion term that does little more than convince one that the car can probably move under its own power.

"The clutch is tight". What the hell does that mean? That it's out of adjustment? That the pivot is seized? It means NOTHING. There is no automotive term other than mis-adjustment that "clutch is tight" means.

They said the power window mechanism worked great. It probably does when you jumper it to a 12 volt source. They made no promises to the rest of the electricals. They did not even say the car would start but that is somewhat implied by "engine and transmission work great."

"Great compression" means nothing. Specific numbers and leak-down tests by a qualified Porsche mechanic DO mean something. The term "great compression" is subjective. Just like my version of a great day might be someone else's cause for hard alcohol and valium. They think they compression is great but there are no quantitive measurements to back that up.

You got hosed. The guy is a disgusting schiester. But you will not win this one. You will only spend more money and personal aggravation chasing this nasty person. I should know... I'm a MOTOR MEISTER victim... This experience is your "motor meister." Lick the wounds, build a good car and NEVER do what was done to you to somebody else.

angela

[burgermeister]

No legal advice here ...

Write it off (mentally) as tuition and get on with life. Fix 'er up the way you like. Drive often and far! If you drive the car for 10 years, you'd have spent the same amount of money wether the car was in great shape or not. You're just front loading the repairs.

Getting in a legal battle will just sour everything for you, and even if you win the case, it's not so easy to actually collect... and you're likely to spend as much as you stand to collect. You will have a lousy time with everything until the issue is closed for you. If you can afford a 911, it's not worth $9K to have a crappy summer (or more).

Accept your loss, find 'closure' to the incident, and start enjoying your 911, which is presumably why you bought it in the first place.

I'll share my lawyerly experience here. On my father-in-laws advice and against my better judgement (he's a lawyer) we retained an attorney for buying a buildable lot. The deal went sour when previously undisclosed deed restrictions suddenly surfaced. The lawyer got us our deposit back (eventually), without even going to court. It cost us $3600 to get $3000 back. The $3600 does not include the deal related stuff that we were planning on paying anyway. Every time the legal beagle answered the phone, he charged us for 15 minutes of time at $250 / hour. Every 5 line letter was billed at $200 to $300. Every minute used for travel was charged at full rate. And we had 2 months of crap. It was NOT worth it just to 'win'. And, financially, we lost. We payed $600 to have 2 crappy months of spring, when we could have been looking for other lots or houses.

My $0.0005