Best aftermarket ignition?

What is the best aftermarket ignition to use on an 911SC? I have heard some good things about Crane and MSD. Also, What will I have to change out to use a system like MSD? Do I have to change out the coil, wires, distributor etc?

Thanks,

Paul
81 911SC

MSD MSD MSD. i can show you several hundred good reasons to use MSD, but if you want to see them for yourself.. go to the nearest race track

here's some quick MSD stories:

i've seen MSD units in more track Porsches than ALL OTHER AFTERMARKET BRANDS COMBINED.

many GTP, Group C, Can-Am, and Sports Racer cars ran MSD ignition units originally. many of them are using the exact same MSD units they had when the cars were in full competition a decade or two ago.

MSD units are used in 100% of Trans-AM, and 98% of NASCAR race cars. they are also used in 100% of the Grand-Am AGT cars.

i've talked with owners of Formula 1 cars that ripped out the Marelli, Bosch, or Lucas system, then replaced them with an MSD unit.. and had less problems, more horsepower, and more reliability with the MSD in the car.

you will see MSD units in more than 90% of the sprint, short-track, drag racing, and SCCA pro racing cars out there. not to mention just about all the smaller formula cars. i see them in lots of the Grand-Am Cup cars, and just about every stock car you see racing out there today in full-on competition.

i've seen MSD units in vintage Formula 1 ferraris, GT-40s, GTP Porsches (replaced the factory units), and even in racing boats (hydroplanes).

there are countless articles on the web that show how people replaced the stock ignition in their car with an MSD unit and then kicked themselves in the butt for not doing it earlier (because the improvements were that dramatic).

i could go on forever, but basically, if it's good enough for 90+% of the cars iv'e seen then it should be good enough for you

good luck!

obin

oops, forgot to mention i run an MSD coil setup in my 924 and the improvement was instant and dramatic.

obin

The stock CD ignition on an SC is pretty damn good.
Curious as to why you think you need an aftermarket.

Unless you are going to dual-plugs and higher compression, you will not EVER see any additional hp by changing your ignition from the stock Bosch CDI-system on an SC! Even then, the gains are minimal, and hardly justify the price of $600-$1200 ignition systems, unless part of a total engine package by Jerry Woods or Bob Norwood!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

My Bosch CD was fried. So I needed a new one. Ouch. I went to my local speed shop and bought a MSD. $185. WOW!!!!

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CM Wagner

1968 911 S Coupe
Light Ivory

stock is just fine, if all else is in order and you are not too rich or too lean.

But if you go into after market avoid the analog MSD stuff. (The 6A box is analog) and use the new digital MSD stuff they have out also check out the Crane HI-6 series (it is digital also) Do not waist money on the Jaccobs crap..... the speed shop in town will no longer carry them because of their rediculous claims that they cannot back up.

Once the flame front is moving more sparks behind it don't really matter and MSD and others on give multiple sparks below 3000 rpm.... makes you kinda wonder why the single spark above 3000 rpm still works well huh?.....stock is just fine.

The reason I ask, is because of a recent problem I had while at an auto x event. The car has run fine for the last year, but the car has had a very rough idle on start up as of late (runs fine after a few minutes. Then at the auto x a couple weeks ago the car stalled 6 or 7 times while waiting in line for my second run. Then, under full acceleration, it stalled again. It has been fine since (except for the rough idle on start up). I have been told by a few that it sounds like bad fuel or a bad fuel pump. Others have pointed to the ignition system as being the problem. The cap, rotor, plugs, and plug wires are all new as of last spring. The coil looks old, and the CDI unit looks like the original. I am wondering about getting into the fuel pump first and testing it. Then maybe change out the coil. If it is in fact the CDI, I don't want to pay for the OEM part and would replace it with an aftermarket box. Any ideas on the cause of this trouble are welcomed.

Has anybody had any experience with the high-end coil-less/optical ignition systems?

-EJ

I think this guy "TurboTim" has a totally electronic, distributor-less, and coil-less ignition system on his 944 turbo (pushing around 500hp, if I remember correctly), he posts on rennlist often, might offer feedback.

Anyway, I think (aftermarket)ignition systems make a differance too, there's no denying that they can produce a stronger spark. That translates into simply more molecules getting fired the instant spark was created. And that simply means, in the given time, starting out with a larger #of molecules on fire, you can burn MORE of the air/fuel in one combustion stroke, in the same given time.

More fuel efficient, much better throttle response, and more hp. Simple as that.

The SC might have very good igniton stock, but not as good as a high end aftermarket one. Consider this, most aftermarket igniton manufacturers recommend increasing plug gap .010 to .030... Make what you want out of that, to me it means a bigger, more potent spark!
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

More BS from the peanut gallery ...

Anyone care to speculate how a coil-less ignition system might possibly generate the high Voltages needed ... Van de Graff generator or Wimshurst machine, I suppose?

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Warren, I know you're not an idiot, but why do you have a problem understanding what I post? Just provided you a way to find out more if you were interested!!!

"I think this guy "TurboTim" has a totally electronic, distributor-less, and coil-less ignition system on his 944 turbo (pushing around 500hp, if I remember correctly), he posts on rennlist often, might offer feedback."

However, seeing that you either missed that, or don't wanna go the trouble, I'll share what I found with a simple search:

"Hybrid Ignition Systems have been developed to mount directly onto vehicle engines and come in a number of configurations, either single channel or multiple channel, where each channel represents a cylinder of the engine. This type of module generally uses Darlington Transistor arrangements as the output stage, however, the development of Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor (IGBT) technology has led to the development of Coilless Distributor Modules which produce the spark directly."

Still interested in "More BS from the peanut gallery..."?

Here are some links:

http://www.wayne-kerr.ac.psiweb.com/ate/hybrid.htm

http://www.ednmag.com/reg/1997/090197/18di_05.htm

http://www.visionmotorsports.com/perma-tu.htm

PS: I understand you know a great deal about these cars, what I don't understand is how somebody as arrogant as yourself can be so greatly respected at this board! Everytime I post something that may remotely relate to another post of yours, you take a piece of my post out of context, and knock on it...
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

Yet even MORE BS, on a topic with even less knowledge about fundamental electronics than peanut's respect for traffic laws ... it matters little what you switch the current with ... nothing new about Darlington bipolar transistors, or IGT MOS devices, which have been around for 40 years, you still don't generate high Voltages without coils, i.e., transformers, in the circuit ... unless you dig up junk science and HYPE from the Internet!!! Plenty of that to go around, especially from the peanut gallery ...

Electromotive, and others, use a dedicated 'coil' per sparkplug, and, in some cases, built into an electronic 'module' at the sparkplug connector, eliminating the individual ignition wires, alltogether! Nissan did it on experimental V6 engines more than 10 years ago, to eliminate RFI!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Go electromotive! It is pricey but well worth it, especially if distributor condition is in question. You also have the ability to modify your timing curve with over 50 different combinations and still stay within your motors static and overall timing. A lot of people mistaken Hp for efficiency. Although they are linked, it is efficiency of the motor that is increased when you upgrade. I brlieve if you are going to do something, try to go all out.

You don't get it, I didn't claim to know anything, that's why I'm supplying you with info from others who claim to do so!

Which brings me to my actual point, I really don't like the manner in which you reply to my posts. THAT is my concern, not coil-less ignition systems.

I belive Nissan has used the techonology you're talking about with the 300zx TT. I can look into it if you really want me to, but not if you want more stuff to reply useless posts to.
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

I am skeptical about any benefits of MSD and other aftermarket devices. The stock ignition is very good.

The MSD concept will help engines that missfire a lot, but if you are having problems with missfire you should be fixing the source of the problem instead of covering it up with multiple sparks to get a partial burn.

MSD is a single spark over 3000 rpm anyway, and that is when I care about making HP.

I have heard from some respected authorities that a bigger plug gap can result in more power. But the stock ignition can't drive a bigger gap.

So the theory goes that an aftermarket ignition that can drive a hotter spark with a bigger gap should give a small HP boost. This seems to hold some potential but I haven't tried it.


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'86 Cab, '77 Targa, '85 toyota 4wd rain mobile http://www.cheaterswayside.com/911/

Originally posted by cmorelan:
I am skeptical about any benefits of MSD and other aftermarket devices. The stock ignition is very good.

The MSD concept will help engines that missfire a lot, but if you are having problems with missfire you should be fixing the source of the problem instead of covering it up with multiple sparks to get a partial burn.

MSD is a single spark over 3000 rpm anyway, and that is when I care about making HP.

are you thinking of a different product? MSD stands for "Multiple Spark Discharge"

http://www.msdignition.com/1hist.htm
and:
http://www.msdignition.com/1ignstre.htm

maybe you're thinking of the Jacobs box?

obin

Let me explain, 1.2 Gees.
Have you seen the Twilight Zone "The Old Man in the Cave"?
It's about post nuclear Earth where a small group of people consult a mysterious and hidden old man in a cave atop a hill. He tells them via a messenger when to plant their crops, which cans of food to eat, etc.

Well, there's a revolt (brought on by a character played by James Coburn), and a lynch mob goes up to confront the old man--who often restricts them from leaving, from eating certain things, etc. The very slick Coburn becomes their leader.

They find out this old man is a computer, and they destroy it.
The next clip shows the villagers dead. Dead from having eaten radioactive food--without the old man restricting their behavior, protecting and guiding them, they're lost.

Okay, now Warren is the Old Man in the Cave.




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Kurt B
'84 Carrera Cab.
carrera_cabriolet@yahoo.com

Yes I am aware that MSD stand for multiple spark discharge, hence the references to multiple sparks in my post

My point is that multi sparks only benefit you if the first spark failed (a missfire).

If your engine is missfiring, you should fix the problem rather than attempt to band aid with additional sparks later in the crankshaft rotation.

Further, the MSD units only provide multiple sparks up to 3000 RPM, above which they are a single spark. Hence they offer no benefit in the powerband, even for a badly missfiring engine.


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'86 Cab, '77 Targa, '85 toyota 4wd rain mobile http://www.cheaterswayside.com/911/

Kurt B

Your analogy was interesting but that is the biggest ASS kissing, sucking up story I have ever read in this forum. This is a prime example of followers and leaders. You mock 1.2 but in reality it seems that you would be afraid of even wipping your own ass without consulting someone else.