Top End Estimate - Need a review

[Super_Dave_D]

Hey - I am looking at a top-end and need someone to take a look at this and see if the price is on par for the average (for what I am getting done). Any comments are welcome. I need this quick so I can give a go or no go. Thanks!!

[Rot 911]

The prices are a bit on the high side, but not by much. My question is if he is pulling the cylinders to replace the divilar head studs why not replace the piston rings while he is in there? And why is he only replacing 8 head studs? There are 12 lower head studs to replace, 6 on each side.

[Gogar]

Kurt, he lists 24 steel studs on the sheet - so that's good.

+1 It seems to me like a new set of rings would be great, but I'm just guessing. It's gonna be torn down that far, anyway.
Someone on here knows the realities of new rings-old P's. I don't.

Seems like a great idea - Unless he tries to upsell you to a new set of P's and C's when he gets in there! $$$$$$$$

[charleskieffner]

super duper dave............hope the seats are working fine.

while yer in thars to think about:

powder coat engine tin/fan/etc. it goes on and on.............

any and all gaskets replaced

new clutch(im sure there dropping eng/tranny as one its a g-50)

new engine sound deadner pad

since cv's apart check fer wear

zoomy unwarpable hargett valve covers(went to ventura.......they is nice)

cad plate fan housing strap

cad plate all nuts bolts washers (cheap)

and anything else that catches your eye.

good luck and keep us posted with what all they find good and bad.

[Super_Dave_D]

Yes the seats look awesome but that’s the least of my issues right now. I know I could spend a fortune "while we are in there". The clutch is a definite must. The CV's are new so no issues there. To be honest, I am a little frustrated right now and I am compleplating getting rid of it when its complete BUT I am having all the tin and housings and stuff powder coated so it will look pretty and run nice so we'll see when I get it back.

Originally Posted by charleskieffner

super duper dave............hope the seats are working fine.

while yer in thars to think about:

powder coat engine tin/fan/etc. it goes on and on.............

any and all gaskets replaced

new clutch(im sure there dropping eng/tranny as one its a g-50)

new engine sound deadner pad

since cv's apart check fer wear

zoomy unwarpable hargett valve covers(went to ventura.......they is nice)

cad plate fan housing strap

cad plate all nuts bolts washers (cheap)

and anything else that catches your eye.

good luck and keep us posted with what all they find good and bad.

[KTL]

If your wrench is good, he should be able to reuse the head nuts. I only booged three on my engine and that's because I was impatient and didn't switch sockets when I should have done so.

If he heats the exhaust nuts cherry red with oxy-acet torch, the nuts should come off without breaking the studs for your exhaust system.

Distributor cap is pretty pricey. Do that simple job yourself!

[charleskieffner]

super duper dave.............dont get depressed over it!

more than likely.............like 99% sure the bottom end is still in perfect condition. countless threads here for our year vehicles and others . have read over and over how many wished they had never cracked the bottom end.

so with a new top end , you really dont have alot more to worry about. car will run like raped ape, use no oil, and wont smoke.


just to put you back in your happy place..............an exact carbon copy of my 87 red cab when it was stock(bone stock) was at ventura. 118K miles on it. guy was firm asking 29,995$$$$$$$$$ and it was worth every penny. concours condition.

as per excellance and order of being coveted for 87-89 model years:

1)speedster-89

2)cabs

3)coupes (sunroof deletes)

4)coupes (w/sunroofs)

5) targas

the 87-89's are starting to really become the model years to own and prices are showing it. they only made so many............and alot are already wadded up into a beer can. its supply/demand and you have a really nice car there.

when you get done with the top end, go drive it around and break it in, and then go forget about it for a while. then come back to it and go for it again. i know all about heaving mass quanities of cash into them. and im still not done.

but to be truthful.............i wouldnt have it any other way.

[silverc4s]

Depending on the miles / years on your engine, you might want to take a close look at all of the cam drive hardware as well. Chains, tensioners, sprockets, are not that much more $$ while it is laying all over the shop anyway.

[disfin]

Dave, I just completed my top end rebuild a couple months ago and couldn't be happier. I had 114k on the clock and had leak down numbers similar to yours. I was using close to a quart every 250 miles and I now use no oil and don't smoke at all. I avoided some of the "while you are in there's", but did some as well. For example, my clutch had been replaced once before and was still in great condition. No reason to replace it again. On the other hand, I went ahead and did the re-ring (glad I did), engine sound pad, breather gasket, fuel line, oil return tubes and a bunch of other little things while I was in there.

In terms of your list of parts a couple things jump to mind.
1. The parts are a tad higher than on PP, but what do you expect - mechanics always make money on parts as well as labor.
2. The labor at 27 hours is less than I would have expected. It really is alot of work. I would have guessed 40 hours, but what do i know.
3. What about rebuilding the heads? Is that included in the 27 hours? I saw the valve guides, but didn't see anything for exhaust valves or machine work. And who is doing the work on the heads?

Good luck and keep that fellow FL G-50 on the road!

[khamul02]

I've seen a shop in memphis (I pretty good one at that) charge 8K for a total rebuild.

[ianc]

It seems a little wacky to me...

27 hrs. doesn't seem like long enough to pull, disassemble, reassemble and reinstall, but what the hey...

Is he including the work to do the heads in this estimate? I notice he lists the valve guides in the cost, but what will be done to the heads exactly? These are the most critical area, and not where you want to save money. You should look at valves; if you can afford it, replace all, if not, just do exhausts. The seats need to be cut and lapped after replacing the guides, and this is a rather time-consuming operation. Valve springs tested or replaced?

8 hours seems a bit extreme to replace the head studs; it didn't even take ME that long.

Agree with Kevin that new head nuts should not be required.

Also agree that new rings should be contemplated should things be apart. Pistons and cyls should be measured for wear while in there; it would be expensive to go back there if there are issues.

Good luck, it's worth it!

ianc

[Quicksilver]

Originally Posted by Kurt V

The prices are a bit on the high side, but not by much. My question is if he is pulling the cylinders to replace the divilar head studs why not replace the piston rings while he is in there? And why is he only replacing 8 head studs? There are 12 lower head studs to replace, 6 on each side.

The "8" that it refers to is 8 hours not 8 each. I'm not sure what the book lists for standard time to replace a stud but a day of labor to replace the studs when the heads are already off seems a bit steep.

I am a "do it yourself" kind of guy and part of the reason is I hate paying for labor because I could be buying parts with that money instead.
- If you can remove and deliver the engine yourself that would be a big chunk right there.
- The distributor cap you can replace yourself for a lot less.
- Is there a reason that the sensors are on the list? Was there any problems with the way it was running other then the valve/compression issues?
- If they are going to charge you $52 for oil make it something different then Castrol or deliver your own.

The clutch is a good "while you are in there" but if you are looking at that you might want to think about a light weight pressure plate and disk without the rubber hub. If the clutch looks great I would still do a new throwout bearing.

Plating the parts is an interesting idea. It would do a lot to keep things nice without costing too much.

The recommendation that you reuse the head nuts is just bad and your mechanic won't go for it. He is putting in ARP studs. You need to use ARP nuts on those studs. The thread pitch is the same but the profile of the thread is different.

[ianc]

The recommendation that you reuse the head nuts is just bad and your mechanic won't go for it. He is putting in ARP studs. You need to use ARP nuts on those studs. The thread pitch is the same but the profile of the thread is different.

Hmmm... The work order lists ARP fasteners, not ARP studs. I doubt you can buy a set of 24 ARP studs for $432; that sounds about like stock steel prices to me...

Don't see a reason to use ARP head nuts if you're just going to use the stock steel studs, the stock nuts should be fine, and the $100 better spent elsewhere.

ianc

[Quicksilver]

Originally Posted by ianc

Hmmm... The work order lists ARP fasteners, not ARP studs. I doubt you can buy a set of 24 ARP studs for $432; that sounds about like stock steel prices to me...

Don't see a reason to use ARP head nuts if you're just going to use the stock steel studs, the stock nuts should be fine, and the $100 better spent elsewhere.

ianc

Yeah, that is weird. What does "ARP fasteners" mean if it doesn't refer to ARP studs?

EBS lists ARP for $495 so a shop price of $523.20 doesn't sound right for ARP studs and nuts. Besides the fact that they listed the Porsche numbers.

That is a definite point that needs to be cleared up.

[stealthn]

Yes what others have said, do the rings (he said the plugs were oily and fouled "Mismatched" WTF?), and if your doing the valves guides why no do the valves and seats unless they're perfect?

As always if you are not keen on the quote get another one from a recommended shop.

Good luck.

[2.7RACER]

David,
The quote is only as good as the shop. Ask around, there are good, better and the best.
Find the best shop and talk to them about what you want to do and how far you are willing to go. Listen to their recomendation, then proceed. The best shop will get it right the first time.
Don't nickel and dime them, they will explain what needs to be done.
The best shop is usually busy, so you may have to wait awhile.
Again, ask around, in a short time the best shop will be apparent.

[Super_Dave_D]

I went ahead and gave him the green light so theres no looking back now. I did ask about the rings and he said he wanted to inspect them first and that he would N/C install them if needed. He felt good about the compression so he didnt list them. My garage is so lonely now or maybe it me - the wife already took it over and put her G35 in there!!! WTF the body isnt even cold!!

Oh ya - the plugs mismatched!!! Previous wrench and hes supposed to be good!?! I know I shoudl do it myself but I had it there so I had him do it - I was lazy and look what it got me.

I'll be back!!!

[ianc]

Hope they do a great job for you! Stop in every now and again and take some pics for posting here; we'll be interested to see what's haps with your baby.

Keep us posted!

ianc

[charleskieffner]

super duper dave...........next week on friday bring a case of the shops FAVORITE BEER! see if they are working saturday. ask to come in and youll buy lunch. ask to be the shop monkey on your car. ie. parts washing etc.

my wrench when i could finally pin him down over a beer said this about engine rebuilds...........

down to the crank/cases split/all parts sitting on the shelf/engine out..........it takes him about 40-50 hours to take apart/clean/machine/and put back together.

the biggest PITA and time eater was................you guessed it.............CLEANING THE PARTS and CHECKING TOLERANCES!


sooooooooooo...............with that in mind........chum up/belly up/cough up some beer and subway sandwiches and ask to clean parts!

saves them time/lets you figure out a KANUTEN-VALVE from a SNORKEL from a VALVE GUIDE and all of you tell TALL TALES, laugh your butts off, and generally have a hell of a time, and best of all.............you get to see whats right and whats FUCHED UP first hand.

3 ways to build a motor:

dirt damn cheap

conservative

apeshi!/hang the expense


point the bucks at what has been the achillies heel on these 3.2's and leave it alone. you have listed those items and the top end will be bulletproof for what your doing w/car. changing earl every 3k will assure it living a happy life for years to come on the highway and the occasional i have lost my mind "track daze"!

im gradually working my way towards exactly what yer doing.

wevo shifter and precision shift joint

SSI's and 2 into 2

tranny comes out and pesky 2nd gear synchro replaced along w/clutch/TO bearing etc. CV's already new. possibly a QUAIFFE???

and then..............the motors top end. unless anything found bad on bottom end. im at 118K and use a 1/4 of a quart of earl every 1549miles.

the ******* car will be NEW AGAIN!


THE ONLY CAR I HAVE EVER OWNED THAT I SPENT WAYYYY MORE ON THAN ITS ORIGINAL PURCHASE PRICE!


is that a beautiful THANG ER WHAT?????? LOL!

TAKE PICTURES!

[charleskieffner]

check your motor and tranny mts while yer in thar. more than likely bagged after 20 years . cheap parts to replace in big scheme of thangs. major butt dyno improvement when installed.

i went with the wevo mtr. mts. and patrick moto tranny mt.

very happy with improvement over my sunbaked/heat rotted/crapped out/bagged 20 year old OEM mounts.