Blackstone results...please comment

[dshepp806]

Elements PPM RP Max Cycle/VIRGIN RP/Street w/ 2800 miles
20W50 20W50


Aluminum 0 3
Chromium 0 0
Iron 2 10
Copper 0 7
Lead 0 2
Tin 0 0
Molybdenum 337 110
Nickel 0 1
Manganese 0 0
Silver 0 1
Titanium 0 0
Potassium 0 2
Boron 6 25
Silicon 5 5
Sodium 3 4
Calcium 1706 2936
Magnesium 5 15
Phosphorous 2203 945
Zinc 746 1235
Barium 0 1


SUS Viscosity @ 210 deg. F 98.0 95.0
CSt Viscosity @ 100 deg C 19.89 19.18
Flashpoint in deg. F 395 395
Fuel % 0 <0.5%
Antifreeze 0 0
Water 0 0.0
Insolubles TR 0.2
TBN 8.6 7.3



Blackstone’s comments sections:::::::::::::::::::

RP Max Cycle, 20W50, Virgin sample:

We’re used to seeing less Phosphorous than this in engine of oils. RP must be trying something new. Note the low flash point; this is something we might flag as pointing to fuel in the oil so keep in mind if/when you use this oil in your engine. Trace of insolubles probably should not be there, but it probably isn’t hurting anything either. Viscosity was fine for 20W50 oil. No moisture found, which is very good. The TBN was 8.6, high for an oil intended for use in a gas engine.





RP Street, 20W50 with 2,800 miles on the oil:

All wear looks good and read below universal averages in the first sample of your Carrera. Universal averages are based on an oil change of 4200 miles. You were short of this but your wear is in the proper balance to indicate normally wearing parts. The oil is still in great shape, physically. The viscosity is normal and no fuel dilution/antifreeze was found. At 131K miles, we have no problems to report. This engine shows no signs of slowing down. The TBN was 7.3, showing plenty of additive left. 4000 miles would be OK.

[dshepp806]

sorry guys,..hit the wrong frikin Key

The first number (columnar) is for the Royal Purple Max Cycle 20W50 virgin sample

The second is the Royal Purple Street, 20W50 with 2800 miles on it

Sorry for the slip./.....anywaze,....


What's up with these numbers? Have they inverted (by chance/error) the Zinc / Phophorous levels on the 2 samples?

Somebody comment please.....I'm presently running the RP Max Cycle and plan to test it at 3K on it's first go-round......need to settle in here. Whatz with the comments on the virgin RP MC?

Thanks to all!!

Best,

[PcarPhil]

Hopefully cnavarro will chime in on this thread.

I'm also currently using RP Max Cycle in my SC. Something's up with those Zinc numbers.

[cnavarro]

I just wrote Doyle an email. Here is the jist of it:

I have a VOA on the Max Cycle as well as a few UOA’s and they show levels MUCH higher than Blackstone’s VOA. I’d ask for a retest on the virgin sample. It is wrong. There is no consistency with their testing- that’s why I stopped using Blackstone all together as of late.

To comment on this further:

When I was sending in samples to have VOAs done, with each batch I would sent a bottle of something I tested in the previous batch, to make sure the the samples were in line with each other. Staveley always nailed it spot on. Blackstone sometimes would be 50% off or more, then I would ask for a retest. I wanted the data on my table to be as accurate as possible and comparable.

If you want to use or are using Max Cycle, don't worry about it. It's a good oil - before I found Brad Penn, that's what I used and recommended most of the time over Mobil 1, even when M1 was good :-) I have been a RP user for over a decade.

[dshepp806]

Alright,..off goes a sample to the other facility tomorrow (Stavely's),..of the virgin RP MC...let's get some comparisons....something's not right?

Looks like the RP street stuff did ok, aside from the reduced Z levels...


No?

Charles,..thanks for the update,.........I'll report back.

Best,

Doyle

[PcarPhil]

Do you guys have info on Stavely's? I could send off a sample of my RP MC with a few thousand miles on it.

[dshepp806]

Just requested some sample kits from them.....I'm out. Maybe I can find something at the hardware/Lowe's store? I'm anxious to get this sample off...gonna' crack a brand new bottle,..sample,..off she goes to Staveley,...as well ( and for the $25 hellofit,....)I'll also get a sample for Blackstone out of this same bottle. I think a couple of data points would be better than one shot, at least: prior to me writing one helluva inquiry to Blackstone....(should the data prove it...)

time will tell,..**** will smell,..and water will seek it's own level...

(I think I'm on to some special song lyrics?

I'll report back with my findings..

Anyone else?

Best,



Oh well,..more cash to spend in pursuit of the answers...............

[autobonrun]

79SC with Castrol GTX.

My readings for phosphorus and zinc respectively from Blackstone were:

777/954.

[dshepp806]

autobonrun: how many miles? or was this virgin? seems low?

Have you ever used Stavely?

I've sent an email to Blackstone stating my surprise (suspicious?) at the measured zinc levels on the RP MC 20W50 virgin sample,..stating that I've tested this oil before (not Stavely) and DID NOT get those levels on that report. Also noted that I sampled a brand new bottle. Asked how they "handled" requests for retests.....we shall see. Gets to be exhausting trying to nail this...... Why would they comment on the flashpoint one way and not on the used street stuff, as they were THE SAME? Also,..comments on a "high TBN of 8.6"...WTF? Thought Porsche called for 10 anywaze,,...//?

reorient,..lock&load,.......shovel-dig. The LAST thing I need is any innaccuracies in my trek provided by any lab,..geeeze...(now THAT complicates it, eh?)

Time to shake the tree and see who's providing truthful data...thanks Charles for calling this to our attention,......I guess one, such as yourself, would see this type of trend while processing MUCHO samples over time. It's a PITA to dump money just to attain a "statistical testing quiescence" across several labs..........guess it's required now, eh?

I'll report back on Blackstone's interface with me,..as well as Staveley's results. I plan to send Stavely a sample from the original virgin RP MC bottle they rx'd my first sample....she's tightly capped and stored inside. This will be ok, right? They'll also rx' another virgin sample/diff bottle..

While on the subject of storage:::::::::::::: What's the low-down on oil "keeping" as related to maintaining integrity of submitted samples? The high notes,...time, temp, storage container, etc.?

...nuff said.


Best,

[cnavarro]

Time to shake the tree and see who's providing truthful data...thanks Charles for calling this to our attention,......I guess one, such as yourself, would see this type of trend while processing MUCHO samples over time. It's a PITA to dump money just to attain a "statistical testing quiescence" across several labs..........guess it's required now, eh?

I was trying to do this and have a "weighted" table, then I got *****ed at that the results aren't accurate, blah, blah, blah, and pulled what I did off almost immediately

It's just too damn hard to get enough data points to do this with an acceptable confidence level. I have about another 100 more that aren't posted on my website and still it didn't really amount to anything. Oh well, at least I tried :-)

The last batch of tests I sent to Blackstone that were off I didn't even bother posting. :-( They do not keep the samples around for a retest. When I asked for a retest, they sent me more bottles and said to resend more oil samples. I never bothered, they are sitting in my office unused.

I've really stopped looking for new oils since we've found what works. There are some exceptions, and it's mostly curiousity compels me to have an oil tested.

[dshepp806]

yes,...a "resting point"......

Charles,..for someone who uses the RP MC 20W50 warm months, would you recc staying with this throughour a southeastern winter? I hate to change brands on the season change but it would appear that RP doesn't give me the weight drop I desire for winter,..meaning I would need to change to (yet) another Manufacturer who could provide quality 15W40....what's your recc for the winter's months...I want to get something a bit thinner tha 20W..to be on the safe side...OR: am I overworrying about this for the winter? I'm in a transition on oil change selections, as well as being faced with seasonal changes.....if I need to change to a diff manu.,..so be it, I guess. I just want her to start seeing the same frikin oil all the time (relatively speaking).....gotta' start somewhere.

Best,

[autobonrun]

Originally Posted by dshepp806

autobonrun: how many miles? or was this virgin? seems low?

Have you ever used Stavely?

The oil had been in about a year but had less than 1000 miles on it. I'm not sure if the low mileage on the oil gives you anything you can compare to or not.

As to Stavely, no experience.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

I was trying to do this and have a "weighted" table, then I got *****ed at that the results aren't accurate, blah, blah, blah, and pulled what I did off almost immediately

It's just too damn hard to get enough data points to do this with an acceptable confidence level. I have about another 100 more that aren't posted on my website and still it didn't really amount to anything. Oh well, at least I tried :-)

The last batch of tests I sent to Blackstone that were off I didn't even bother posting. :-( They do not keep the samples around for a retest. When I asked for a retest, they sent me more bottles and said to resend more oil samples. I never bothered, they are sitting in my office unused.

I've really stopped looking for new oils since we've found what works. There are some exceptions, and it's mostly curiousity compels me to have an oil tested.

Charles,

Welcome to the world of analytical testing. Sadly, it is not a accurate or percise as the labs would like us to think.

In a past life I ran a QC program for a semiconductor manufacturer (read testing our chemicals and water for ppt level contminants). Like you, sometimes the results can get really screwy even with a quality lab.

Most quality labs will share their QC data with you. I would expect to triplicate results and the results of spikes and blanks. This data will give you a feel for both their precision and accuracy. Addionally, I would send them knowns to help me verify accuracy. Expensive, you bet. but the cost of an error was even higher.

[dshepp806]

Well,...I contacted Blackstone and expressed my "interests" in their measured amount of Zinc in my virgin sample RP MC, 20W50. Here was their emailed reply:

''''''''''''''''''Doyle: Thanks for the e-mail. I'm sorry about the delay in getting
back to you. There is always the possibility of a spectrometer
problem, so I'll have this sample re-run today and let you know what
I find out.'''''''''''''''''''''''''

It looks like they may have my old sample still around? Strange?

I'll post their reply upon receipt.

Best,

[dshepp806]

Rx'd the following back from Blackstone today re: the virgin Royal Purple Max Cycle, 20W50:

Doyle: I had a chance to rerun that sample and it looks like the
zinc reading was correct. The second run on it turned up 716
ppm. The high phophorus is really the unusual reading. Royal Purple
appears to be modifying their additive package for this brand of
oil. Normally phosphorus and zinc are present in the oil as an
anti-wear additive called zinc-dithiophosphate and in that form,
phosphorus is typically lower than zinc by 100-200 ppm. Let me know
if you have any more questions.


I still intend to send a sample to Stavely and see what they come up with.....far be it from 1200 PPM, eh?

Charles?


Best

[cnavarro]

That is so strange. It is very different from what I found when I tested it. You might want to call Royal Purple and ask. It's worth a shot.

[dshepp806]

That's a great idea! I will do so and report back..

Thanks, Charles!!

[dshepp806]

Well,..here's RP's response to the Blackstone results:

RP 20W50 API SL Motor Oil should have roughly 900 - 950 ppm zinc and phosphorus. - so the Blackstone lab is slightly high on the zinc on your report (D20373). This could be explained if this is the first oil change and there was residual oil in the engine from a previous brand with a higher zinc content. The synthetic moly is correct range, and the calcium is a bit higher than the expected 2500-2600.

The sample D20374 does not look like our MaxCycle 20W50 at all.
Moly is low - should be higher at 500. Calcium is low - should be in the 2800-3000 range. Phosphorus is low - should be 4500. Zinc is very low - should be 1250-1300. Hey, they got the viscosity about right.
The flash point is low - should be at minimum 420 and probably closer to 450.

Don't know if they switched sample reports?

Send me the batch number off of the quart bottle and I'll see if I can get a production typical for that batch.


......and the beat goes on?

Best,

[cnavarro]

Doyle,

That's what I thought the VOA should have said - what they are stating are the appropriate levels are what I have seen consistantly from Staveley. I will reiterate that I'd feel perfectly safe running the RP Max Cycle, it's shown itself to be a very good oil.

At least RP is open enough to share their info right off the bat and answer your question. Most companies are not that forthcoming! :-)

[dshepp806]

Yes! Very quick responders, for sure! I'm impressed.

I'm still hell bent on seeing, at least, one VOA that is accurate. No worries, as it looks like I'll be sticking with the Max Cycle stuff...still haven't rx'd a response from Staveley as to providing sample bottles..been well over a week now.

Thanks for your input, Charles.

My best,