question on droping the a-arm.

rnln · 03-30-2008, 01:34 AM

Hi, I am thinking of replacing the torsion bar (or a-arm) bushing DIY. Searching the board, reading many posts, I found that removing the ball joint will destroy it. Is it posible that I can keep the ball joint untouched, just undo the bolts (toward front and rear) of the torsion bar housing, droping the a-arm but the ball joint and bottom of shock are in placed. Is it posible? Will I be able to slide the torsion bar end off the cross member without removing the ball joint off the shock?
Thanks.

tonythetarga · 03-30-2008, 04:42 AM

You can remove the a-arm and leave the ball joint attached by releasing it from the bottom of the strut. There is a wedge pin with a nut on the end that you need to remove (and replace...do not reuse the old one) You will need to spray some PB to loosen the 'brown locktite' aka rust. Hit it with a hammer to release it. Be patient, it will come out.
Then you have the a-arm completely off and then can wrestle with removing the bushing.
What type of bushings are you putting on?

glennspiegler · glennspiegler's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by rnln

Hi, I am thinking of replacing the torsion bar (or a-arm) bushing DIY. Searching the board, reading many posts, I found that removing the ball joint will destroy it. Is it posible that I can keep the ball joint untouched, just undo the bolts (toward front and rear) of the torsion bar housing, droping the a-arm but the ball joint and bottom of shock are in placed. Is it posible? Will I be able to slide the torsion bar end off the cross member without removing the ball joint off the shock?
Thanks.

I replaced ball joints and tie rods last year. Recently wanted to do front control arm bushings, suggest polybronze, and front strut replacement. I detached the upper strut, removed brackets from control arm, took off caliper, and was able to remove entire unit without removing castle nut and ball joint again. You will need to realign car. See my recent post for the prob I ran into.

burgermeister · burgermeister's Garage

I could not get the balljoint separated from the strut without a pickle fork - I spent 2 days soaking and hammering away before resorting to the destructive measures. Which then necessitated a new balljoint. As they were originals, they were probably due anyway.

My fix for the LCA bushings:
Front LCA Rubber Bushing

Takes about 10 minutes per arm. Holding up well so far.

KFC911 · 03-30-2008, 06:10 AM

While you "can" leave the ball joint intact by leaving it in the strut as the other said, I agree with Burgermeister. They're 21 years old, and should probably be replaced while you're in there.

rnln · 03-30-2008, 11:02 AM

Tony,
thanks tony,
That what I plan to do but when searching on this board, I found that when people stick the tool in there to separate the ball joint and the shock, the boot is rip. Is it true?
When you say hammer it, do you mean hammer at the arm to pull the arm (and the ball join) toward the bottom to separate from the shock?

glennspiegler,
the polybronze sounds interested, according to many people on this board but $260 vs $36 the OEM rubber. I am kind of thinking if it worth that much different.

burgermeister,
looking at your pictures, the offset of the bushing isn't that much. Does that much makes the different? I have not able to see mine yet.

KC911,
The reason I think I want to keep the ball joint is because we check them (a friend and I) and they look good, feel good, no play there. Boot is in good shape. I bought the car used, so don't know if they are stock or replaced but the shocks were replaced with Boge.
Actually, the original question was leaving it in place means keeping the arm hanging on the shock, not pulling the ball joint off the shock nor off the arm. And work on the bushing while the arm is in the car. Is it posible? Sound like it's not.

Thanks guys.

RWebb · RWebb's Garage

So, is it possible to leave the arms attached at the ball joint and install polybronze Elph. bushings?

And, if so, is it easy?

I think that is the question -- as you have to vulcanize the oem rubber onto the arms. You can't just slide something on and have it work right (according to numerous past postings by experts).

tonythetarga · 03-30-2008, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rnln

When you say hammer it, do you mean hammer at the arm to pull the arm (and the ball join) toward the bottom to separate from the shock?

glennspiegler,
the polybronze sounds interested, according to many people on this board but $260 vs $36 the OEM rubber. I am kind of thinking if it worth that much different.

What I meant was to hammer out the pin that anchors the ball joint into the a-arm. The pin is horizontal to the ground, the ball joint has it's end inserted up into the bottom of the strut. You unbolt the wedge pin and hammer it out, then you may have to use force to get the ball joint pin out of the strut, but you can do that without damaging the boot. As far as knowing whether you ball joint is OK, you will want to move the pin around after dropping the a-arm and making sure it isn't dried out. It should give some resistance to movement but not too much.

As mentioned by Randy, you can't put OEM rubber back on. You have plastic choices which need precision fitting to not squeek or you can go with Poly Bronze. If you ask me, PB is the best way to go.

burgermeister · burgermeister's Garage

rnln, if the rear a-arm bushing is eccentric enough, the torsion bar inside the a-arm will rub against the a-arm tube. This is bad for ride & noise, and horrible for torsion bar durability. This is one of the main reasons for replacing the bushings. Rotating the rubber 180 degrees gets the torsion bar back into the middle of the a-arm where it belongs without replacing the bushing. If your torsion bars are scored and worn, you have the same problem I had. If so, you should probably plan on replacing the torsion bars sooner than later also (used ones are pretty cheap).

rnln · 09:40 PM

RWebb,
That's right, thanks.
I was talking about the 99-3014-340-M230 on pp sell site and thought it was rubber. I double checked after reading your response and found that it's Poly-Graphite which is the one many people claim having squeaky problem. Will need more reseach.

Tony,
"but you can do that without damaging the boot"
this is the good news for me.

burgermeister,
this is another new thing. I have search and read many posts here but didn't see anything about rotating the rubber 180. How can you do that if the rubber is bond to the tube, and people have to use heat to that it off?

umm.. after reading and looking at the whole assembly again, I think I can pull the front torsion bar off to check on the condition before making any further decision huh. Just pulling it off, I can just have to take the adjust bolt off, pull the cap off, and pull the torsion bar out. With this, I don't mess with the alignment at all, right? I think I got it right.

Thanks all.

burgermeister · burgermeister's Garage

If you read this post: Front LCA Rubber Bushing
you will know how to rotate the rubber bushing 180 degrees.

BTW, the rubber is not "bonded" to the tube despite popular opinion. The rubber is compressed and jammed inbetween the tube and the outer can. If you put your A-arm in a vise and crank hard enough on the outer can, the bushing will slip on the A-arm tube (I tried it - if you don't believe it, you can too). As the bushing / tube interface has less surface area than the bushing / can interface, that's the one that will always slip unless you use heat to modify the coefficient of friction between the can and the bushing.

tonythetarga · 03-31-2008, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rnln

umm.. after reading and looking at the whole assembly again, I think I can pull the front torsion bar off to check on the condition before making any further decision huh. Just pulling it off, I can just have to take the adjust bolt off, pull the cap off, and pull the torsion bar out. With this, I don't mess with the alignment at all, right? I think I got it right.

When you pull the torsion bars only your alignment will stay in place BUT, your ride height and corner balance will be distrubed. Ride height is easy enough to get back with a bit of patience, but your corner balance is critical to safe operation and handling of the car. I would suggest that if you take on the job, you do it with eyes open and know that you should do all the work at one time and corner balance when you're done.

rnln · 03-31-2008, 10:42 AM

Thanks Tony,
I will mark every step and watch out.

burgermeister,
wow... I read your thread before but didn't really understand the detail, now I do. So if you heat on either side, the bushing will release and twist. After it cool off, it'll bind again. This is great. I will do this trick.
One question, look like it's been 1/2 year already, have to drive the car much? have you check to see if the bushing twist back to original position or it stay good?
Did you have any problem such as noise, etc prior to this task?
Thanks.

burgermeister · burgermeister's Garage

Michigan being what it is, the car's been down since December. I have around 1000 or 1500 miles on the repair. I had a fairly harsh ride over bumps, which got noticeably better (in the front, anyhow...) once I rotated the bushings. Though the only reason I found the worn/grooved torsion bars is because I had to replace the front suspension pan, and therefore remove the A-arms.

The bushing is not going to twist back into its previous position. If anything, the rubber (which carries the entire vertical load of the front of the car) will eventually flow around until the problem re-occurs. I figure it took 10 to 15 years to manifest itself on the original bushing, and I hope I have at least 5 or 10 years on the rotated part.

Just be cautious with the amount of heat you use. Wear safety glasses & heat evenly. You're not trying to melt the whole bushing, just a tiny bit around the boundary layer to lubricate a bit - just a wisp of smoke. It still took a decent amount of effort to turn it even with the monster screwdriver I used.

Note: If your torsion bars are OK, I'd leave the bushings alone...

rnln · 03-31-2008, 08:34 PM

Thanks for the information. I don't know if the bushings and torsion bars are ok or not but I have the snapping sound from the area, also most people said "replace". I am in the search of "what is the problem.
Look like your solution is good since the bar is only lean on one side. The only I am thinking that it might not does what we think is if the bushing is slowly turning in there and eventually back to the original position. But as you said, maybe it can't turn that easy.
I will try it.