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Booney1golf's Avatar
 
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Cool Finally COLD A/C - 39 deg at vent!!!!!!

Good evening everyone. I have a 85 Porsche 911 Carrera Targa which I absolutely love. I wanted to share with everyone the best upgrade that I have done (completed today) to my car in the last 4 years of Ownership:

Hint.... I live in Houston. You guessed it. COLD A/C

I just installed a rebuilt A/C Compressor for about $250 and a Procooler from Rennaire which was around $300 (Thanks Jeff for your help with the phone calls). Then I purchased 6 cans of Industrial ES12A Refrigerant (only needed 2 cans) less than $75 including the shipping (Thanks Randy - www.autorefrigerants.com).

"It is colder than either R-12 or 134a and has much larger molecules that are less likely to leak"

Had one hose rebuilt ($50) due to being crushed during last tire purchase.
Then $250 to install / charge / test..... - Thanks Chris

$925 = 39 deg at the vent

I'm sure this is not as good of a way as getting a complete new system; hoses, belly condensers, bigger evaporators, etc... but it is a way that will work.!!

Thanks for everyones help and also this great Porsche Community that helps others and that shares ideas with each other.

Best regards,
Booney1golf
85 Porsche 911 Carrera Targa - And I thought Golf was addicting!!!
www.amazingdreamtravel.info


Last edited by Booney1golf; 04-01-2008 at 12:01 PM..
Old 03-31-2008, 08:38 PM
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Awesome.
After I have my AC system checked I might consider doing the same stuff...
I really hope not to do the full system!!
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Old 03-31-2008, 08:45 PM
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Thats great!!! Sounds better than having to redue everything.

Last edited by MJHanna; 04-01-2008 at 07:41 AM..
Old 04-01-2008, 03:53 AM
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That's what I thought. After reading all of the horror stories I waited 4 years to tackle this.

If I would have known for less than $1000 I could have had ice cold A/C I would have done this when I purchased the car.

Live and learn!

Best regards,
Booney1golf
85 Porsche 911 Carrera Targa - And I thought Golf was addicting!!!
www.amazingdreamtravel.info
Old 04-01-2008, 06:05 AM
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I was all prepared to find out you lived in Minneapolis or something but anyone who's from Houston and has managed to get good ac has my respect. It's one of the few places more uncomfortable than Dallas during the summer. Once I get my engine rebuilt the ac get's attacked next and I planned to do one upgrade at a time, starting with the Procooler.
I'd like to see what I can do one step at a time to get it to perform at a decent level since I bought an A4 to solve the really hot days ac problem. :-)).
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Old 04-01-2008, 06:19 AM
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39F may or may not be so good. Depends on the ambient temperature outside above the condenser when you took this reading.

If it was 110F or so OK, 39F is not bad. 70+ differential

But at 90F or so you should see 32F at the vents and it should freeze you out of there until you back off the temp control.


May want to check the low side pressure tables for your refrigerant. It could be the expansion valve was not correctly set for your refrigerant or the system may be overcharged as well.

If you got 39 at 90F, then you'll likely see 55+ at 110 and that's not so good in Texas.

Since building my own A/C recently and reading a lot of these forums I'm convinced low temps at the vents start with low side pressure.
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Old 04-01-2008, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsuter View Post
39F may or may not be so good. Depends on the ambient temperature outside above the condenser when you took this reading.

If it was 110F or so OK, 39F is not bad. 70+ differential

But at 90F or so you should see 32F at the vents and it should freeze you out of there until you back off the temp control.


May want to check the low side pressure tables for your refrigerant. It could be the expansion valve was not correctly set for your refrigerant or the system may be overcharged as well.

If you got 39 at 90F, then you'll likely see 55+ at 110 and that's not so good in Texas.

Since building my own A/C recently and reading a lot of these forums I'm convinced low temps at the vents start with low side pressure.
try 110 degrees ambient and 55 degree dewpoint and blow 37 degrees with r-12. and believe me with a cab(arrest me red w/black top) here in az every freeking stinking degree HELPS!
Old 04-01-2008, 07:20 AM
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Thanks for the advice. FYI it was 82 deg outside yesterday with high humidity when this was completed / tested and it was freezing me out on the lowest fan speed.

Is it as good as what you all have. Probably not. I knew when I posted this there would be some comments saying that I either did not do it right or something along those lines.

I will keep you all posted but for now I am quite pleased.

Thanks again for your time / comments.

Best regards,
Booney1golf
85 Porsche 911 Carrera Targa - And I thought Golf was addicting!!!
www.amazingdreamtravel.info
Old 04-01-2008, 07:37 AM
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I'm not saying you didn't do it right, but on this forum IMHO there is excess focus on complex systems, fancy condensers, fans, plumbing, etc. mostly by vendors selling such stuff.

Not enough focus on the low pressure side, refrigerant properties and the role of the expansion valve (adjustable) at the evaporator.

It could be that all you need to see 32F at 92 Ambient is a small turn on your expansion valve.

Some scientist did some fancy PVT formula and proved this stuff out.

Unfortunately for the vendors there is no money to be made in selling an expansion valve matched to the refrigerant choice.
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Old 04-01-2008, 11:41 AM
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Thanks for the info. I really am very grateful. I will have the system pressures rechecked to insure that my system is optimized.

What really amazed me is that even in several traffic jams the vent temps stayed at 42 deg or below.

If I remember correctly you installed a condenser in the rear spoiler of your car. I admire your workmanship and documentation of your project, as well as your results.

With that being said, I had to share me experience with others as well.

Thanks again for your time and help!

Best regards,

Booney1golf
85 Porsche 911 Carrera Targa - And I thought Golf was addicting!!!
www.amazingdreamtravel.info

Last edited by Booney1golf; 04-01-2008 at 05:15 PM..
Old 04-01-2008, 11:51 AM
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as a testament to the above mine is a bone stock sysytem. albeit all NEW so low temps can be achieved. the procooler did catch my eye though. pretty simple install and maybe a few more degrees cooler.

im now going on 2 years since the renovation and not one problem. i do religiously turn the a/c on every time i get in the car for about 10-15 minutes rain cold hot humid sun or moon to circulate system and wet those parts.
Old 04-01-2008, 01:03 PM
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tsuter never has a positive outlook. His avatar pretty well sums it up. His second post is as mild as I've seen from him.

I have bookmarked your thread as I have many A/C threads before it. I'm relieved that one doens't have to sell the farm to be somewhat comfortable. Frankly, I think 26* air is too cold for me. Why does it make much sense to counter an overbearing A/C sysem by adding heat? In my truck, it's on and I adjust the fan to suit. I have never added heat.

My truck cab and a 911 cabin should be about the the same in requirement. I'll bet anywhere under 40* and I'll be happy. It gets to 100 in LA enough of the time. I don't drive w/o A/C when it's over 80 outside.

So let me ask my question: I have a C2 lid with spoiler and can't use the engine bay condenser. I'm not too upset about that because I don't agree with that position. I will add a desert duty front condenser and my bumper design should feed it many times more than the factory valance. I will need a second condenser. Someone I trust has told me NOT to use a rear fender mounted one but to buy a combo front fender 964 oil cooler/A/C condenser. I have not been able to get any info on those.

What is the next best idea besides the desert condenser being served by a large, otherwise oil cooler opening? And, let's here some more about that refrigerant. Is it possible that the barrier hose conversion is not necessary because of some molecule size?

One more: Is there a left front side condenser? I have no problem ditching the water bottle and I have a "horn" grille serving that area that otherwise is useless.
Old 04-01-2008, 01:59 PM
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Garage
What brand of compressor and where did you get it?
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Old 04-02-2008, 07:23 PM
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sounds good. but you said 39 on LOW. temps and pressures are checked with the fan on HI/MAX.
be carefull what you put in, if the can says FLAMEABLE, DONT USE IT! a garage can not reclaim it and it contains propane. kaaboom!
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Old 04-07-2008, 08:56 AM
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I like that ES12a idea. Less chance of having to replace my hoses. Is there any downside?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tsuter View Post
I'm not saying you didn't do it right, but on this forum IMHO there is excess focus on complex systems, fancy condensers, fans, plumbing, etc. mostly by vendors selling such stuff.

Not enough focus on the low pressure side, refrigerant properties and the role of the expansion valve (adjustable) at the evaporator.

It could be that all you need to see 32F at 92 Ambient is a small turn on your expansion valve.

Some scientist did some fancy PVT formula and proved this stuff out.

Unfortunately for the vendors there is no money to be made in selling an expansion valve matched to the refrigerant choice.
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Old 04-07-2008, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milt View Post
What is the next best idea besides the desert condenser being served by a large, otherwise oil cooler opening? And, let's here some more about that refrigerant. Is it possible that the barrier hose conversion is not necessary because of some molecule size?

One more: Is there a left front side condenser? I have no problem ditching the water bottle and I have a "horn" grille serving that area that otherwise is useless.
Milt: I installed a condenser/fan assembly in the front left fender and removed the water bottle. You can see a picture of it in this thread: Most effective ac upgrade. I bought the condenser from www.iceac.com. They're in San Diego. It wasn't a "turnkey" installation by any means, but with a bit of fabrication (mounting bracket, hoses, etc.) I was able to install it. What's not in the picture is the guard I made. Basically, I took some flattened steel mesh and fashioned a guard that covers the front and bottom of the condenser. Once cut, the edges are like razors, so I took a piece of 3/8" (?) hose, split it down the side, and made a protective edging which is held in place with tie-wraps.

HTH

Scott
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Old 04-07-2008, 10:09 AM
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I have read/heard about the wonderfull thing from ES12a and I know many of us are using it here on this board with good result. I did a little search on the internet and found several horible stories on flamble and "contains propane. kaaboom". But in the mean time, autorefrigerents.com stated that ES12a has higher ignite temperature than both R12 and 134 do. This is confusing. Is there any pro out there, who know this stuff, can shread some lights? My car is old and for sure things leak here and there is normal. I love the lower degree but I don't want a kaaboom to happen.
Thanks guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T77911S View Post
sounds good. but you said 39 on LOW. temps and pressures are checked with the fan on HI/MAX.
be carefull what you put in, if the can says FLAMEABLE, DONT USE IT! a garage can not reclaim it and it contains propane. kaaboom!
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:45 AM
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I have read/heard about the wonderfull thing from ES12a and I know many of us are using it here on this board with good result. I did a little search on the internet and found several horible stories on flamble and "contains propane. kaaboom". But in the mean time, autorefrigerents.com stated that ES12a has higher ignite temperature than both R12 and 134 do. This is confusing. Is there any pro out there, who know this stuff, can shread some lights? My car is old and for sure things leak here and there is normal. I love the lower degree but I don't want a kaaboom to happen.
Thanks guys.
They are talking about autoignition temperature. That is the temp at which it will spontaneously burst into flames without introducing any kind of ignition source - like a match. For R-12 & for R-134a that temperature is about 1400 degrees F, and ES-12a is about 1600 degrees F. If you are in that temperature range the type of refrigerant you have is the least of your worries. So in reality that argument is meaningless.

On the other hand at normal operating temperatures ES12a is a mixture of propane & butane so it will certainly burn if exposed to an igntion source where R-12 or R-134a will not.

So there is an added risk of fire if you decide to use it. Is that risk worth it? You have to decide that for yourself.
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Old 06-24-2008, 12:07 PM
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I have found two supposedly non flammable R-12 alternatives. Product claims look good, anyone with user evaluations?

http://www.freeze12.com/

http://www.refrigerantsales.com/autofrost.html
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:24 PM
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I am clear now. Thanks Barrpete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrpete View Post
They are talking about autoignition temperature. That is the temp at which it will spontaneously burst into flames without introducing any kind of ignition source - like a match. For R-12 & for R-134a that temperature is about 1400 degrees F, and ES-12a is about 1600 degrees F. If you are in that temperature range the type of refrigerant you have is the least of your worries. So in reality that argument is meaningless.

On the other hand at normal operating temperatures ES12a is a mixture of propane & butane so it will certainly burn if exposed to an igntion source where R-12 or R-134a will not.

So there is an added risk of fire if you decide to use it. Is that risk worth it? You have to decide that for yourself.
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:28 PM
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