SS Brake Hoses - Preferences/Suggestions?

I am planning on replacing my rubber brake hoses with SS braided lines in my 83SC and replace fluid with Super Blue very soon. I have been plagued by sticking calipers after brakes get warm and based on the previous threads, I believe it is either the lines or old fluid. I have been looking around in catalogs and websites to compare price and brand and came up with the following options:

Pelican $65.90 unknown brand
Tweeks $99.99 Goodridge (inc clips)
Tweeks $129.99 Brembo
Performance $89.95 Weltmeister

All are the DOT variety. I sent an e-mail to Pelican on 5/7 inquiring about the brand but have had no response yet. Wayne, you reading this? Anyone out there have good or bad experiences with either variety? Based on cost, Pelican has everyone beat but does low cost mean low quality in this case? If the quality is there then I would prefer to give my business to Wayne because of this great BBS he sponsors. Hoping for some wisdom from the group. Thanks in advance.

Eric
83SC

Installed a set 2 years ago. It's about 60 bucks non DOT. It works well and I do track my car. I think only the quality matter.
Andy
'87 Carrera

Hi,
My advice would be: don't.
The braided hoses are for race only cars that have a very stric maintenence, and are to be changed frequently, as you can't assess the condition of the tube under the braiding.
Case in point: my mechanic has a Factory 935, up to 1000 HP (that's not a typo). He uses only the standard rubber hoses, the same as on my Carrera, and probably on your car too. He saw once a braided hose fail on a race car, with the result you can imagine- a big crash.
I figure if he can stop his car with standard hoses, you shouldn't have trouble stopping yours.
GeorgeK

[This message has been edited by GeorgeK (edited 05-11-2001).]

I agree with GeorgeK on this one. However, If you are going to use the braided hoses, make sure that they don't rub against anything. That stainless steel braiding works like a big file and will rub their way through anything that comes in its way.
Regards
Stef

Looks like your going to get a lot of different advice on this one! I put the Weltmeister DOT brake lines from Performance
on my car 2 years ago. I track the car frequently. A local club racer recommended
S.S. brake lines. A lot of debris can accumulate on the track even in drivers education events. Standard hoses will fail more frequently than S.S. because they will be cut. The pedal feel is also more precise!

I also went to the ATE Super Blue. Very pleased

Good Luck!

Huey581
86' 911 Cab



[This message has been edited by Huey581 (edited 05-11-2001).]

I think the question was what kind, not whether he should or not. I changed mine and I can confirm they do give a stiffer, higher pedal feel then the rubber hoses. My mechanic ordered mine and they are DOT. There are ones called Ernies? that are frequently recommended. If someone doesnt chime in, I can check for you.

------------------
8 9 9 1 1, The last of the line.

No doubt, put them on. Buy the DOT ones and be happy. They make a huge difference in feel.

I've had non-DOT on my '87 for several years, no problems. I do have the lines flushed at least once a year for the track.

Pete

I've had both SS and regular lines on many cars over the years, and I have to say I never noticed any difference in pedal feel or braking. Including on 914s and 911s used on street and track.

I've gone back and forth on this over the years, but my current thinking is that if I had the choice, I'd stick with new OEM rubber lines. As Bruce Anderson says, in his vast experience, the failure rate on SS lines is much higher than it is with OEM lines, for a variety of reasons. He recommends OEM rubber lines for street cars, I don't notice any difference in braking or feel, so I personally see no need to deviate from the OEM part.

Just my opinion.

(that being said, I never had any problems or complaints with my SS lines, including non-DOT SS lines, and don't really have anything against them).

[This message has been edited by Jim T (edited 05-11-2001).]

As someone who has used the Earl's kits over an extended period of time on personal vehicles, I have to agree 100% with GeorgeK, and have said the same things in the past.

Over an 15-year period, I had two failures on my '74 Datsun truck with the SS lines, one in the middle of the tubing, and the other at a swaged end, and neither were early failures, the first after 10 years, and the second after 14 years -- on a 1978 installation! It took 19 years for an OEM rubber Bendix hose to fail on my '68 Mopar! Luckily for me, those are the only brake hose failures I have ever experienced, and all were driveway or parking lot failures with absolutely no resulting damage to vehicles!

In no installation ... including VW, Datsun, Mercedes, Porsche, and Mopar ... did the hoses change the 'feel' of the brake pedal, or make any change in braking performance!

AJ-USA has DOT-approved hose kits for around $69.

But, I still recommend OEM rubber hoses, changed every 10 years!

------------------
Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Here's some info from over at Rennlist

Sat, 30 May 1998 20:43:31 -0700

Author: "Andrew Warren"

Subject: "DOT-Approved" SS Brake Lines Explained

Body: Dudes:

A few people have asked me to explain the difference between
"DOT-approved" and non-approved stainless-steel brake lines.
This explanation is pretty long, but I think it'll explain
everything so I won't ever have to post another message on the
subject... I'll just refer anyone who asks to the Porschelist
searchable archives.

First, a quick explanation of what stainless-steel brake lines
ARE:

The brake lines we're talking about are the flexible ones
that connect between the hard lines (i.e., the inflexible
tubing) in the car and the brake calipers on the wheels.

They've traditionally been made from rubber tubing, with
steel or aluminum connectors crimped onto their ends.
Nearly all passenger cars are shipped with rubber brake
lines, and they hardly ever fail.

"Stainless-steel" lines are made of Teflon tubing, not
rubber. Teflon has a number of advantages over rubber;
the chief ones are that it doesn't expand under pressure
and it doesn't deteriorate with age. It also resists
high temperatures and is chemically inert, so it's
compatible with all brake fluids.

However, Teflon is pretty fragile, so it has to be
protected from physical damage (chafing, flying rocks,
etc.). Although some manufacturers armor their Teflon
hoses with Kevlar, most protect the Teflon with an
external sheath of braided stainless-steel wire... So
that's why armored Teflon hose is usually called
"stainless-steel hose".

The ends of the hoses have to be securely attached to the
brake calipers and the hard lines, so each hose is
terminated by threaded hose-ends.

Those hose-end fittings can be attached to the hoses a
couple of ways.

The cheap way is to crimp or swage them onto the hoses,
like the fittings on rubber hoses. The more-expensive
way is to use a two-piece replaceable hose end that
captures a portion of the hose between an inner nipple
and a concentric outer socket. These hose-ends (often
referred to generically as "Aeroquip fittings" because
they were invented by the Aeroquip Corporation) are used
EVERYWHERE on aircraft and race cars.

Ok... So what's required for a stainless-steel brake line to
be DOT-approved?

First, I should point out that there may be lines available
that meet all the DOT specs, but are non-approved only because
they haven't been submitted to the DOT for approval.

Manufacturers can't legally say that their lines are approved -
- even if they KNOW that the lines meet all the DOT
specifications -- without actually submittimg them to the DOT.

For that reason, stainless-steel brake lines can fall into
three categories:

"DOT approved" - These lines have been submitted to and
approved by the US Department of
Transportation.

"non-approved" - These lines don't have a DOT approval,
either because they don't meet the specs
or simply because they haven't been
submitted for testing.

"non-conforming" - These lines are non-approved (and non-
approvable) because they fail to meet
the DOT specs.

Ok...

The safety standard that brake hoses must meet is called
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 106; if you have a copy
of the Code of Federal Regulations handy, it's in Title 49,
Volume 5, Subpart B, Section 571.106.

The section that applies to hydraulic hoses is about six pages
long, and it covers everything from labeling requirements to
pressure and temperature testing.

One important thing to note -- this'll come up later when I
explain why the "best" hose assemblies can't be DOT approved --
is that each of the requirements in the Standard carries the
same weight; if a hose fails to meet ANY requirement, it won't
be approved.

Hypothetically, therefore, a hose which met all the
performance specs but was labeled in lowercase letters (the
Standard requires block capitals) would fail to be approved.

Also, some of the features required by the Standard provide a
certain amount of "idiot-proofing", but at the expense of
absolute maximum strength or safety... It's the same sort of
mandated mediocrity that forced Ferrari to replace the stock 5-
point safety harnesses in US-spec F40s with those ridiculous
motorized-mouse single shoulder belts.

Anyway...

Most of the "performance" specs in the Standard (i.e., burst
strength, compatibility with brake fluids, tensile strength,
expansion under pressure, etc.) are easily met by all halfway-
decent hydraulic brake hoses, but there are a couple of tests
and requirements that are particularly difficult for stainless-
steel hoses to meet.

Those requirements are:

1. The manner in which the fittings must be attached to
the hose.

FMVSS 106 specifies that "Each hydraulic brake hose
assembly shall have PERMANENTLY ATTACHED brake hose
end fittings which are attached by deformation of the
fitting about the hose BY CRIMPING OR SWAGING."
[Emphasis added]

The idea is that, since crimped-on fittings can't be
loosened, a stupid end-user won't be able to screw
with and weaken them.

This is a good thing from a product-liability point
of view, I guess... But it means that any hose
assembly which uses the very best fittings available -
- like the nipple-and-cutter Aeroquip Super Gem or
Earl's Speed Seal -- is non-conforming and CAN'T be
DOT-approved.

2. The "whip-resistance" test.

This test involves mounting the hose on a flexing
machine, pressurizing it to 235 psi, then running it
at 800 RPM for 35 hours.

When steel-armored hoses were run through that test,
it was found that the hoses tended to bend right at
the junction between the hose and the hose-ends.
After a while, the stainless-steel braid would start
to tear, and the broken wires would cut into the
inner Teflon liner, causing it to fail.

One brake-hose manufacturer fought to modify the whip test,
claiming that their stainless-steel hose could easily comply
with the test if only a supplemental support were used during
testing to move the flexing-point away from the hose-ends.

The NHTSA ruled on the issue in August, 1996, deciding to
allow manufacturers to use the supplemental support... But
only on the condition that the same support was used when the
hoses were installed on a real car.

FMVSS 106 was modified to include the use of the support, and
the new rules went into effect in October, 1996.

"DOT-approved" stainless-steel brake hoses went on sale
immediately thereafter.

So now you know what DOT approval entails. For information on
why you would want (or might not want) stainless-steel brake
hoses on your car, see the next message from me... It's a copy
of a message I wrote on the subject about a year and a half
ago; I tried to append it to THIS message, but the Porschelist
server complained that it was too long.

-Andy


=== Andrew Warren - fastfwd@ix.netcom.com
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California