996+997=Subaru+Toyta?

PCA7GGR · 05-03-2008, 03:46 PM

I paid a visit to one of my local independent Porsche shops today and my friend/mechanic tells me in passing that 996/997 cases are sourced from Fuji Heavy Industries (AKA SUBARU) and the trannies come from TOYOTA.

Can someone out there confirm or refute this?

the · 05-03-2008, 03:59 PM

I believe many of the current Porsches (including the 997) use transmission which are sourced from Aisin Seiki.

Toyota is the largest shareholder/owner of Aisin Seiki. They are a huge automotive component mfr.

Not sure about the engine cases.

Dantilla · 05-03-2008, 04:00 PM

I don't know about that for sure, but the guy who sets up the suspension of my race car calls the new 911 engines Subaru engines as a derogatory statememnt.

Formerly Steve Wilkinson · 05-03-2008, 04:02 PM

Fuji is an enormous industry in Japan, and saying it's "AKA Subaru" is like saying GE, a manufaccturer of everything from aircraft jet engines to locomotives, is "AKA lightbulb." Porsche transmissions, for example, have for some years now been manufactured by a Japanese company--can't remember the name, all of a sudden--not ZF or Getrag or any classic German companies.

The transmissions don't come from Toyota, they come from the same excellent company that happens to make them for Toyota. And perhaps Ferrari, for all we know: gearboxes are one of those things that specialists can do much better than can car manufacturers.

Now, ask me about Chinese subcontractors...

the · 05-03-2008, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formerly Steve Wilkinson

The transmissions don't come from Toyota, they come from the same excellent company that happens to make them for Toyota.

I guess that's true, but more accurately, it's a company that is majority owned by Toyota.

Formerly Steve Wilkinson · 05-03-2008, 04:10 PM

Uh...okay.

911quest · 05-03-2008, 04:45 PM

Well if theres some truth behind it the Subaru motors seem to hold up a lot better then th Porsche motors....I believe that Porsche does alot of engineering work for Subaru I have had a Subaru H-6 apart and they use a very similar valve system as the Vario-Cam Plus actually the lifters are marked Made in Germany......

Dantilla · 05-03-2008, 05:31 PM

Hey, Stephan-

What do you think about Chinese subcontractors?

Matt Monson · 05-03-2008, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formerly Steve Wilkinson

Fuji is an enormous industry in Japan, and saying it's "AKA Subaru" is like saying GE, a manufaccturer of everything from aircraft jet engines to locomotives, is "AKA lightbulb." Porsche transmissions, for example, have for some years now been manufactured by a Japanese company--can't remember the name, all of a sudden--not ZF or Getrag or any classic German companies.

The transmissions don't come from Toyota, they come from the same excellent company that happens to make them for Toyota. And perhaps Ferrari, for all we know: gearboxes are one of those things that specialists can do much better than can car manufacturers.

Now, ask me about Chinese subcontractors...

As the owner of a business that ONLY deals with Porsche transmissions, I can tell you that the Aisin 997 series transmissions are a significant step backwards from even the 996 gearboxes, which are the least reliable gearboxes Porsche has ever put into a 911, until now. I fully expect thw issues with the 997 gearboxes to become far more widespread and chronic than with it's predecesor. And that's saying a lot since the 996 gearboxes have been having both 2nd gear pop out issues and bearing failures anywhere from 40-60k with great regularity. 915 and G50/01 and even G50/20's regularly saw more than 100k mi before needing their first rebuild.

Talk to guys running the Carrera Cup series. There's lots of issues with burning up both the syncrhos and the tips of the shift forks. This causes a catastrophic failure of the gearbox. It's only a matter of time until you start to see the same issues on the street cars, especially with folks doing DE and PCA events. And just like what happened with the 996 5 years ago, there's currently no service parts available for the 997 gearbox. I really hope that Porsche gets ahead of the curve on this one and not only releases parts soon but releases upgraded replacement parts that solve the problems with the box. I know of several operations doing their own R&D on upgraded replacement parts, but without the more generalized parts like bearings rebuilding a 997 will continue to be taking two partly worn out gearboxes and trying to make one not so worn out gearbox.

Sorry for the rant, but after seeing what's been happening with the 996 gearboxes, I hoped that Porsche would be more ahead of the curve on this new generation with this supposedly better Japanese gearbox. In their favour, I will say that they have finally dialed in the ratios on the tranny, and from the factory the 997 tranny is way better geared for the engine than the 996's were...

EarlyPorsche · 05-03-2008, 06:12 PM

I love my 997 box. I don't see the problem with it. Could you elaborate on it?

tcar · 05-03-2008, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarlyPorsche

I love my 997 box. I don't see the problem with it. Could you elaborate on it?

How many miles on it? How do you drive?

If you drive modestly on the street, you may not see many probs for quite a while.

Jeff Alton · 05-03-2008, 06:43 PM

Matt, should this not be good for business???

Or................

Cheers

EarlyPorsche · 05-03-2008, 06:50 PM

8,000 or so miles. All have been on the street but that wouldn't matter unless on the track you were shifting without clutching (which would be foolish among other things). I think that it might be the most precise and smooth manual out there. Sure I love my 901 box, but the 997 box is an engineering feat. I urge you all to test drive one to experience it.

Matt Monson · 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Alton

Matt, should this not be good for business???

Or................

Cheers

Yeah, it is a double edged sword. With the 996, Powerhaus II was one of, if not, the first shop in the country that could repair the 996 gearboxes. They pretty much had a corner on the market for several years before other people started getting their hands on parts and the knowledge to rebuild those boxes. They were living large there for a while with basically a corner on the market. It's still a very limited market because even though parts are now available, there's some specialized tools required (including a super heavy duty press) and some special techniques required to properly rebuild a 996 so that the issues with second gear won't rear their ugly head again in another 50-60k mi. That makes it very good business for someone doing 996 and Boxster S rebuild work.

At the same time, as an enthusiast and Porsche lover it's not something I like to see happening to "our" brand. There's plenty of business out there without an "epidemic" to drum up business. I'd personally prefer not to see such problems happening to Porsche cars so early on in their life. It's not the standard of durability we've come to expect from a maker with so many 24 hour wins and such a history of reliability over the last 6 decades.

Earlyporsche,
Like Tcar said, you likely won't see an issue with your tranny for some time, if ever. I know I sound all doom and gloom. But keep in mind the difference in production numbers we see these days. They are making so many cars that what I am terming "epidemic" is likely less than a double digit percentage of 997's that are going to have a problem. As the same time, that's not a small percentage is not a small number since that failure number in units probably will exceed the total number of 911's Porsche made in 1968 or 1969. It's all relative.

It's likely going to be the hard driven cars that will see the issues most pronounced. But that doesn't mean that down the road there won't be failures on more moderately driven cars. When the 996 issues first came to light, it was on cars that were tracked and driven hard. Over time, it's spread to a more broad based segment of the ownership of the cars as the trannies have worn. Only time will tell if the issues with the 997 will become as widespread as they have with the 996. My gutt says that they will, but I have been wrong before...

Matt Monson · 05-03-2008, 08:10 PM

Oh, one other thing. You won't see these problems with anything but the Carrera 2 and 4 series. The turbo cars and the GT3's still use a Getrag gearbox that is essentially an evolution of the ealier 6 spd gearboxes. Anyone buying at the top of the brand is going to be insulated from these issues...