1987 Carrera 3.2 won't turn over

getluky · 10-09-2005, 08:45 AM

Hi Pelicanites,

Unfortunately, i'm still having the same problems as I posted about here:

87 911 Carrera not starting...

It's been a year, and it doesn't happen frequently, but I always figured it was a faulty starter. Well, I had the starter replaced (Bosch rebuilt starter @ Otto's) a couple weeks ago, and here we are again. I've got more details this time, too:

When I turn the key, I hear a click and the whirr of the fuel pump. I had a buddy take a look at the engine while I was trying to start it, and it's not turning over / cranking at all. I took out my trusty multimeter to test the battery, and it looks like a voltage between the leads of 12.46V, so I doubt it's a dead battery, but I wouldn't say that for sure.

This has happened when hot or cold, and sometimes even after a bout of spirited driving. It seems random at times, but typically what happens when I'm stranded is that I keep trying to start it, and about an hour after the initial try, it finally starts working. Sometimes i'll even just come back the next day and it will start right up.

Since it's a weekend, I'm hemming and hawing between waiting for Otto's to open back up on Monday and having it flatbedded, and trying to figure it out on my own with help from the board. Since i'll be moving soon, I think there would be a strong argument for getting to know my starting system better right now.

I dug through a lot of the old threads on the board lastnight, and most of the cases seemed to be either DME-related (in which case the pump was not working but they had crank) or a dead battery (in which they had no crank, but I tested the battery and am fairly confident it's not dead). Some of them also had no 'click', and that's the starter solenoid, right? I've got a click, so I don't think that's my problem. Since Otto just replaced the starter, I figure that the starter connections are probably pretty clean.

Anyway, any requests for photos/videos will be honored. I currently do *not* have a good toolkit or even a jack/jack stands, so if I need to go get one this morning, i'll give it a shot if you guys have any recommendations that might be available at pep boys. However, i'll be gone all afternoon and probably some of the evening, but I do appreciate all of your help. TIA!

- Gordon

ben parrish · 10-09-2005, 09:04 AM

Check your battery voltage when you turn the key over. If you have a dead cell, the battery may look fine until a load is placed on it. I had a similar problem and it turned out to be a battery; replaced and it happened again in a few months. Turned out to be the alternator was going bad and spiking voltage at times, cooking the battery. Replaced the alternator and battery and havn't had a problem since.
Good luck,
Ben

getluky · 10-09-2005, 09:29 AM

Ben,

Thanks for the suggestion! I'll try it - a few questions, though:

1) Do you mean leave the key in the "on" position, or all the way over to the "start" position?
2) What is a good voltage level under load that I should be looking for?

-Gordon

getluky · 10-09-2005, 10:09 AM

Okay, got a few more measurements now. I re-read the Bentley section of battery testing, and it said to put a load on it for a minute before testing too.

I turned on the lights and put the key into the "ON" position, and also turned on the radio for good measure. I got 12.10v, and when turning off the radio & lights, but leaving the key in the "ON" position, it turned out to be 12.30v. Neither is above the 12.4v recommended in the Bentley manual.

Would a jump do the trick to get it running?

What do you think I should do at this point? This battery should be a little over a year old now if the PO was telling the truth. However, I don't mind replacing it if it is truly the culprit.

jbrinkley · 10:17 AM

turn the headlights on for a bit without the car running. Measure V at bat after a minute or so has gone by. IF less than 12.4 it might not crank over.
edit, guess I'm slow, I push started mine to Sears and had a load test, got a new battery, all good.

getluky · 10-09-2005, 10:20 AM

Jerry, sounds like a good plan. I'll see what I can do about getting it push started in my tiny garage. If that doesn't work i'll probably try to remove it and stick it in a cardboard box, then drive over to sears with the trusty civic.

Am NOT looking forward to removing/replacing the battery on my own. Looks like it's gonna be a total pain.

jbrinkley · 10-09-2005, 10:24 AM

one of them special tools in the kit works good for that hold down nut.

getluky · 10-09-2005, 10:28 AM

Which kit is that?

kqw · 10-09-2005, 10:31 AM

I'm betting on a defective solenoid. Sometimes you take a chance on a rebuilt that the solenoid was replaced...

getluky · 10-09-2005, 10:35 AM

kqw, good point. Since i'm just about out of all my time today, i'll call up Otto tomorrow and gather his opinion too.

kqw · 10-09-2005, 10:39 AM

I replaced my starter a few years ago with a Bosch rebuilt unit. 2 of the starters acted up within a month and the 3rd one worked just fine.

No biggy...I'm sure Otto's will just replace the starter for you...no charge of course....

jbrinkley · 10-09-2005, 10:39 AM

the stock tool kit, the one in the trunk. You got one?

getluky · 10-09-2005, 10:41 AM

kqw: yeah, i'm sure that Otto will get to the bottom of it, as long as I can get my car over there. That's where AAA plus comes in handy.

Jerry: I don't have a stock tool kit, does PP sell one here?

jbrinkley · 10-09-2005, 10:47 AM

maybe, really the only things I've used out it are the spark plug socket, big wrench for the alt nut, and the long battery allen wrench. It's nice to have though.

slodave · slodave's Garage

Hi,

Have not seen any mention of the DME relay.. Have you tried replacing it? It can cause those symptoms.

Dave

getluky · 10-09-2005, 09:42 PM

Hi Dave,

If there's a problem with the DME relay, then I wouldn't hear the fuel pump whirring, right? Or might there be a DME-relay-related problem that would prevent delivery of fuel even though the pump was running?

Thanks,

Gordon

slodave · slodave's Garage

Hi,

I had a similar problem last that was fixed last summer. Started out that the car acted up (or so it seemed) every spring and fall. Right when it became cool/moist in L.A. Then it started to happen last summer, I tried to diagnose at home with some guidance from my Mech. but nothing worked. Seems that the DME relay is a dual relay, deals with fuel pump too. The car would not start at home for 1 1/2 months. I had it flatbedded to my mech. - he promptly calls and says it starts just fine. The car was in the shop for a week with him driving it in morning, me in afternoon. Started and ran just fine. I finally told him to replace every fuse/relay - is an old car, nothing has really been replaced. He finally relented and removed and cracked the DME relay. He found that all solder joints were broken. It's a cheap part and worth a try :-)

Dave

slodave · slodave's Garage

Oh yeah... Car has been running without a problem since.

Dave

Dottore · 10-09-2005, 09:53 PM

I had a problem that sounds very similar to yours. After a great deal of fiddling around, my mechanic decided the ignition switch assembly needed to be replaced, and this turned out to be the right call.

Like you, all I got was a little click when turning the key.

Cheers,

Mark McClure · 10-09-2005, 10:04 PM

Sounds like battery. The engine should turn over even if the DME is at fault, seperate circuit.

I thought that the battery should read over 13 v's with no load. Take it to a battery shop and they will put what is called a shunt on it. Basically a load that will show up any defects with the battery.

With your problem, how do you resolve it normally....jump started leads? If all you do is jump it out then it is definately the battery. Whilst at the battery shop get them to put an amp meter on it and cheack the charge rate.

Hope thie helps.

Mark.....