Another lowering question
 

I am in the process of lowering my 1986 Targa, and started with the rear since it seemed far tougher to tackle compared to the front. I took apart the spring plate but I cannot seem to get the torsion bar out to re-index it. Is there any tricks to getting the torsion bar out? It wiggles, but I cannot pull it out. If I were to lower the car by only rotating the spring plate one spline on the outside of the bar and leave the inside as is, I predict the car should be lowered by 2.6 inches since there are 44 splines, and therefore each spline means 8.18 degrees of rotation. The radius arm length is 18.5 inches, so using a little trig... 18.5sin(8.18) = 2.63 inches, if my math is correct. Has anyone lowered their car this much, I mean rear by one outer spline? Any photos of what this will look like. Am I nuts to go this low, I think it is probably too low? The car is stock US height now.

Thanks.

You need to do two things here, first pry the spring plate away from the body to get it out, then you need to deal with the spring plate side. Best thing I found from both reading and personal experience is to drill a hole in the cap and use a punch to drive the plate off.

As far as lowering goes, don't worry about the splines, use the angle finder method to get it right.

I got the spring plate off no problem. I planned to use the angle method, only problem is I can't get the torsions bars out. So the thought was to only index the spring plate, not the bars in the car, but that means my smallest adjustment is 8.18 degrees, or 1/44 spines.

AVIMAX do a search for...
 

Will Ferch. He's got the right ideas for your lowering questions. Sample link:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/206875-torsion-bar-wheel-rates-wil-ferch-background-info-please.html?highlight=ferch

There is plenty of information out there on this topic

Well, I decided to go ahead and rotate the spring plates by one spline and see what happens. Uh...too low. It looks like a 17 year old got his hands on the car and had his way with the suspension, like those Honda's you see driving around only millimeters off the ground, except that this is a 911, so it looked kind of cool. But I think the fact that I couldn't get the jack out from under the engine is a good indication that this is way too low. According to the workshop manual, the height adjustment bolts on the spring plates are set from the factory so that you can raise the car, but not lower it. Anybody know how much adjustment there is using these bolts? Right now (with the jack stuck under the car, and the front still high) the ground to fender measurement is 23.75" with 215/60-15 tires. If I could get an inch of height out of the adjustment bolts that would probably do it for me.

74threeliter,

Thanks for the recommendation, I did check out the info from Will Ferch, I understand it completely, and if only I could get the torsion bars free from the car I could just go by the angles, it seems that I would need to change the angle of the spring plates by approx. 3 degrees (clockwise for right side) to acheive euro height from stock height. It seems I may have to try again to free the torsion bars.

Too low:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...watch/75_3.jpg

I think you're actually lucky. The torsion bar and spring plate could have been rusted together.

I think most people pound on the torsion bar a little to get it to break free, then pull, pound, pull, etc until it comes out. You can then stick a long bar into once side and pound the other one out.

I think this will work because you don't have a G50 tranny with the bent torsion tube, right? You might want to check on that first.

PB Blaster is your friend.

i did this few weeks ago. i was surprised how much adjusting room you have on the spring plate height adjuster. try loosening those two bolts and see how much you can increase the height with the adjuster. I think you could increase by an inch or even more...

if you have one side of the torsion bar out, then you could try to push the stuck torsion bar from the other side. Or, like some suggests here, keep pouding on the torsion bar or wiggle it violently and it may come out. Or, you could try to push the torsion bar in and get it out from the other side.

your problem is far easier than the classic torsion bar stuck on the spring plate, which I experienced. I gave up and cut with a grinder and upgraded to 30mm torsion bar...an excuse totally makes sense to me but they all give me that wierd look...why!!!!!???

good luck.

Thanks for the advise. Danny_Ocean, that is nice looking car, ride height looks great with the fenders. I was worried before I dove into this that I was going to have the problem of the spring plates being stuck to the torsion bars, but it seems I was very lucky. I tried wiggling the hell out of the torsion bars, but they just won't let go of the car. I thought about hitting them, but I read somewhere to be careful not to damage the finish on these so that they don't start to rust. I want to keep the original bars for now, so I am treating them somewhat delicately. I am going to try and raise the height with the spring plate adjusting nuts. If I can get an inch out of them, I think I will be OK. If that doesn't work, then I guess I will have to get those bars out and turn them. I really don't want to give up and have to take the car to someone else to do this, I really enjoy doing it myself and would feel a little defeated if I couldn't do it, much more satisfying to drop the car stand back and look at a job well done! But the weather is really nice outside and the car is sitting on jacks and I want to drive. If I hammer (push) on one bar, will it push on the other one since both are stuck in the car?. I don have a G50 transmission, so the tube is straight trough. I was thinking I could hammer a little to break free the other side and then pull it out. I realize that with one bar out, you can push out the other bar with a pole, but what about one bar against the other? Anyone tried this?

I had the same problem. Eventually I used a small monkey wrench applied behind the flared splined area and this gave me leverage to both wiggle and pull till it came out. A few scratches on the bar but at that point I had to try anything.

Theoretically you could make a puller with a 1/2 inch piece of aluminum plate drilled big enough for the bar but smaller than the end. Then you'd have to slice it in half and cross drill it to bolt it back together on the bar. Then tap two or three holes and screw it out with long bolts. A lot of work but it should be possible.

Ron

Tap the bar a little and see if it moves in just a little to free it.
Then put a hose clamp on the end and try prying it out with a large screwdriver.
Or make a puller jig like Ron suggests.
You want the bars out so you can inspect/redo the paint and lube the splines.
Before you re-install the spring plates, open all bolts, lube with anti-seize, then place the smaller plate in the middle of the larger plate (Eccenter bolt in the middle position)
Then adjust height by applying the 40/44 spline principle.
Now you can go to a shop with 911-experience and do a 4-wheel alignment plus corner balancing for around $300.- (Well worth it!)
I found that doing all the preliminary work like lube and height plus leaving the eccentric bolts in neutral allowed for an easy alignment and CB.

Gunter,

All sounds logical to me, except the hose clamp bit. I don't quite follow how to pry the bar with a screw driver. You mean a hose clamp like I buy a Canadian Tire for my garden hose? Anyways, assuming I get the bars out and get the height set properly, I agree that the eccentric bolts should be left in the middle to help the alignment shop. Now I must find a good 911 shop in Toronto, or I assume the local Porsche dealer should know what to do (or maybe not?). Eurowerks in Woodbridge was suggested, but I can't find them on the net or the yellow pages. Any Torontonians out there have any suggestions? Any experience with Pfaff Porsche in Woodbridge? They are probably a rip off, but they should know how to align Porsches.

If I remember correctly, the bar sticks out a certain amount and the hose clamp would be mounted on the bar in such a way that it allows a large screwdriver to be used for leverage.
Tip behind the clamp and pry against the tube after cracking the bar lose with a hefty tap with a 4-lb hammer.
Put some Alu or Brass junk on the bar so the splines don't get damaged when you hammer.
When you pry or pull on the bar, keep it straight/centered in the tube.
Let us know what works.

Got it now. Thanks.

Went back to try again and this time, when I removed the spring plate, the torsion bar came with it and was stuck in the spring pate. Seems I get to experience both scenarios - stuck in car, stuck in spring plate. It seems that depending on how I removed the spring plate determined what the bars would do. If I just pryed the spring plate off the car without any wiggling, then the torsion bar came with it. If I wiggled the spring plate off without prying, the bar stayed in the car. So now I have successfully lowered the rear using the angle method, and set the height adjustment bolts to the middle to allow final adjustment in both directions. The right side and left side are almost the same, within 1/8" of each other, (24.75" and 24.875" to fenders). I need to check the height to the torsion bars for proper checking still. A little fine tuning should make it perfect. Now the fronts. I found that the front could not be lowered enough by only turning the adjustment screws, so it looks like I will have to remove the caps and re-index them. Any tips before I do this and make a stupid mistake?

Thanks.

Sounds like the rear worked out.
Did you install new Neotrix bushings or leave the old rubber ones?

All weight has to be off in front before re-indexing.
What fender height in front are you aiming for? 25"?
How much fuel in the tank?
Do you have the bump-steer spacers under the rack?
If you go for 25", you'll want to install the spacers.

I am aiming for 25"-25.25" for the front since the rear is around 24.75" I am going to take measurements at the rear torsion bars and wheels centres (Canadian spelling!) and then determine what the front should be between the wheel centres and the sway bar (I think that's how it's checked), but I am pretty sure that will work out to around 25.25" in the front fenders. The fuel is almost full, I have the bump steer spacers and since it looks pretty easy to do, I will wait until after I lower it to check how much bump steer there is and then put them in if necessary (I'm sure it will be). I hope the torsion bar caps pop off without too much trouble! Am I correct to think that I want the arms of the caps to be adjusted down for lower ride height, so I should re-index and install them with the arms higher up? Not sure if that even makes sense to me, it should be all clear once I am under the car.

I left the old rubber bushings in the rear. They probably should be replaced, but actually didn't look too bad, not to much flow, so for now I will leave them and save the bushing replacement for another project, another year.

I am going to go see a local shop around the corner, EU Autowerks that I found mentioned on the site a few times to inquire about alignment and corner balancing. I think I may have them install the turbo tie rods since it looks like it will be a pain to get the old ones off while lying on the floor.

Sounds like a good plan.
~25" front means you'll need the rack spacers!
Open the smugglers box.
You'll see the U-joint on the steering column, which is clamped to the splined shaft.
Just loosen the upper clamp-bolt and spray some lube on the splines before you push up on the rack.
To get the spacers in the easy way, take one existing short bolt out, replace with the new longer bolt for just a few threads.
Remove the old short bolt on the other side, push the rack up, install spacer and new longer bolt loosely, then install spacer and new bolt on the other side.
This way you don't have to grope for the threaded holes.
Tighten both new bolts and finally, tighten the U-joint clamp.

Adjusting ride-height front is the other way around: Moving the adjuster-tongue UP means lowering; use oil on the screw-threads and contact-point

I suggest you do the rack-spacers and re-indexing the T-bars at the same time because the front has to be lifted to do both. (No weight)
Lift safely with extra supports.

Thanks Gunter, that definitely sounds like a plan. I am going to throw the spacers in at the same time. A good suggestion about how to put in the bolts. By the way, ran out at lunch to check out EU Autowerks and make an appointment for an alignment. $295.00 - sounds good. The guy there did not recommend corner balancing if I am not taking the car on the track. He said if the car is lowered properly, meaning even all around, and aligned, it is a waste for the street. Seemed a little odd, but I'll try it out and if it's not good, I can always go back and have it corner balanced. Lots of '80s 911's there, so they must know something!

OK, got the front lowered last night. Also installed the bump steer spacers and greased the roll bar bushings to try and eliminate a squeak coming from the front suspension. Front was a breeze. I have it set at 25" to the fender. It seems I measured the rear incorrectly as on side is 24.5" and the other is 24". looks like I will have to go at the rear one more time to even it out at 24.5", maybe even go up to 24.75" and raise the fronts anotherr 1/4" Then off to alignment. I've attached some photos. In these shots, the rear is 24" which looks too low for my taste. Should have it all adjusted and buttoned up tonight!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1213108580.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1213108600.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1213108612.jpg

It is essential that the floor is absolutely level to get accurate measurements!
Meaning: A check with a builders level.
Be prepared that things will settle somewhat after a drive and a day or 2, especially with gas-pressured shocks like Bilsteins etc.
I would ensure that the floor is level and wait with alignment until everything is settled in a couple days because just bouncing down on the bumper does not give you the final height.

Squeaking usually comes from the rubber A-arm bushings; hard to eliminate.

Going to take it for a bit of a drive tonight to settle the suspension. No Bilsteins, just BOGE, put new Sachs all around last week. The floor is surprisingly level which is good. I was afraid you may say something like that about the squeaking, but I will keep my fingers crossed and listen to it tonight, maybe I got lucky!

Thanks.

Success! After a quick drive, the fronts didn't change, but the rear did settle another inch! So I took apart the rear suspension again for the 4th time last night. I am getting good (and quick) at this, but it is getting very repetitive and I am ready for a new project already. Anyways, re-indexed the t-bars again, lowered the car, drove it, checked the height and... perfect! 24.5" rear and 25" front. Looks good to. So now I just wait for my alignment on Monday and I can start enjoying it again. Onto the next project, much simpler, installing the Wevo shifter and SW chip I ordered.

Decide what Camber and Toe you want because the shops only have factory settings which you don't want!
1 deg negative front and 1.5 deg rear (Or close to it) is popular meaning 0.7 or 0.8 deg front and 1.2 or 1.3 deg rear is fine.
Expect the rear to settle more in coming weeks! I would wait with alignment.
Try this:
Park in your normal spot, mark the position on the floor, check the fender height, then turn the car around and park in the same spot reversed and measure again.
Any difference?
If there is, your floor is not level.
Re corner balance:
It is true that a good alignment can come close to good weight distribution but, it's not for certain; you might be surprised by the numbers.
It's your call.
If all suspension-components are good, a combined alignment/CB can be done by an experienced shop in 3 hours.

AVIMAX,
used any tool to get the spring plate out? when i did mine few weeks ago, I soaked the brand new neatrix bushings with grease. It goes in fine but it never wants to come out with some serious leveraging which I haven't been able to find a simple easy solution to. Or should I use something other than grease to lubricate?

midnight 911,

On the first attempt I resorted to grabbing the tube part of the spring plate (where the t-bar is inside) with channel locks and was able to wiggle it out - a lot of wiggling. I resorted to this because I tried prying with a screw driver but it would not budge. On the second attempt, I found by fluke that if I put the open end of my 19mm wrench between the spring plate and the inner fender in between the two posts for the lower bolts that hold on the spring plate cover, the spring plate just slid out with almost no effort by leveraging the wrench! Another thing I found that was if I slid the spring plate out with the wrench, the t-bar came with it, but if I wiggled the spring plate out, the t-bar stayed in the car! This was very helpful since I needed to rotate both the t-bars and the spring plates. However, I did not change the bushings, so yours might be in there a little tighter. Did you clean up the inside surface in the car that the bushings sit on before installing the spring plates with new bushings? I noticed that the bottom part of the hole is not so smooth like the top due to how the weight is carried. If you didn't clean it up, maybe some rust/dirt deposit is acting like teeth on the new bushings? Just a thought.

Gunter,

The shop I am using for the alignment also specializes in track set ups, so I am going to request that they set up the alignment not quite stock, but also not too extreme and see what they suggest, but I will keep your numbers in mind.

Thanks for your suggestions, I'll let you know how it turns out next week.

AVIMAX,
thanks. Yes, as you suspect, the difference is whether you have a new set of bushings or not. New bushings are quite tight...it is even difficult to get it in. I used long bolts to install the spring plates to get leverage. I did clean all the surfaces where the bushings go with glinder with wire brush attachment on. but it is still tight.
then again, i got away with the adjustment range the spring plate has rather than having to have the spring plate off and re-indexed...

when you take it to the alignment shop, do consider taking the tar/ goo off around the camber plate so that you can get more neg camber upfront. your tires should be okay with 2-2.5 degrees of neg camber upfront with zero toe. that would make the car look good and handles better on track/ auto-x.

Good point about removing the tar in the shock towers to speed up things.
The tar is only there to prevent water from coming in from under the fenders.
Easy on the negative camber if you don't do track; you don't want to ride on the inside edge if the tires. :)

Dropped off the car this morning at EU Autowerks to have the alignment done. Below is a photo of the final lowering results. I think I got the heights just about perfect looking, and the front is about 1/2" higher (ground to fender) than the rear so it should not only look good, but be good. I put about 100km on it before the alignment and the heights at all corners are still good. The shop said they will do the alignment so that the turn in will definitely be improved over stock setup. Can't wait to try it out tonight!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1213634926.jpg

Beautiful car, and nice work, AVIMAX...

Thanks midnight911, the mechanic at the shop said a simialr thing. I was telling him about how it took 4 tries to get the height in the rear just right, and he said he was quite surprised that I was able to get the back done myself, and infact no height adjustments were required at any corner! It was nice to hear that after all the hard work. However, I am not enjoying my newly lowered and aligned car yet. It seems I will have to wait a little longer. The shop called to say they could not align the car becuase one of the rear wheel bearings was bad and the wheel was loose. So they got a new bearing and pressed it into the hub, but the wheel is still loose, so they tell me the bearing must have been bad for some time and the hub is now bad. They are going to find me a good used hub for about $300. I am going out of town for a few days, so I will be bringing the car back to them on Friday, and then we should be all done. So far the guys at EU Autowerks have been very good, friendly, not pushy and seem to know what they are talking about. I felt very comfortable leaving the car in their hands. I never feel that comfortale with my new car at the dealer for just an oil change! I would definitley recommend them to anyone in the Toronto area. I'll wrap up Friday with a report how the car is after the alignment is comeplete.

O.K. that can happen.
As long as the mechanic realizes that the big nut needs a lot of torque to take out any axial play in the bearing.
Have fun.

Got the car back from EU Autowerks last Friday and it is amazing. I had them install turbo tie rods before doing the alignment, and now the car is driving great. I think after my work the alignment was way out, becuase the car just feels faster now, or at least less restricted. Of course I may just be wanting to feel this. The steering is much improved and more solid felling with the new tie rods. I also put in a SW chip over the weekend. Not a huge improvement, but definately an improvement. The car is slightly more powerful past 4000rpm, but the biggest difference is the smoothness of the engine. It now idles and runs much much smoother, and revs a little more freely. It was worth the money for the chip. The guys at EU Autowerks were outstanding, highly recommended.

Now to enjoy!