CIS install without drop?
 

Is it possible to install a complete CIS set up with out dropping the engine or will it require at least a partial drop.
What is all in cluded in a partial drop.

1. Losen coupler and remove shaft.
2. Loosen motor mounts.

Is that enough to get it in?

Will I have to remove oil lines or loosen the transmission mounts?

Thanks!

Having just put my CIS on my engine on the stand last week I can fully say I could not have done it with the engine in the car... It was such a pain to get all the intake pipes on and then get all the washers & nuts on after that. I was happy I had 360 deg. of access to everything. Sorry, I know it was not what you wanted to hear...

Best regards,

Michael

Yeah, you'll have to do at least a partial drop. Here's what I do.

1. Jack up the car.
2. Put jack stands under the torsion bars.
3. Raise jack to meet the engine, just behind the oil sump screen.
4. Undo the shift coupler and motor mount bolts. (I don't remove the shaft.)
5. Lower jack to desired height.

I've been able to get the fan pulley down probably 10 inches before I start to feel uncomfortable about it.

It is possible, i have taken out and re-installed CIS on my 79 SC. Its a BIG PAIN IN THE A$$. It can be done but just to save you grief and frustration, partial drop it...

-Jeff

I'm not so sure a drop is necessary. I recently removed the entire CIS without a drop with these instructions found on this forum. I can't see why the reverse would not be the same.

1. Remove the air boot
2. Remove cruise control cable bracket from throttle body, disconnect cable
3. Remove heater blower motor
4. disconnect fuel supply and return lines
5. disconnect 14 pin connector for CIS electrics
6. disconnect and label the WUR, and AAV
7. Remove the 12 13MM intake runner bolts, the last bolt on six is accessible easier after removing the #4 intake runner from the system. You can then take a 3/8 extension and a 13MM swivel form the front of the car and get it of easily
8. Disconnect the oil breather tube at the oil tank
9. Disconnect the PCV line at the oil tank
10. Lift the CIS system up a few inches, then from underneath the airbox, remove the clamp for the oil breather hose and carefully pry the old hose of the cover.
11. Lift CIS up and pull forward until you reach the top of the fan shroud, then angle back and clear the shroud.
12. Consume adult beverage and congratulate yourself.

Takes me about 60 to 90 mins when I still had CIS, takes about 20 now with EFI

As anyone who was working on these cars back in their heyday can attest (exploding air boxes), it is not only quite possible, with a little practice it's not even that bad. What really helps is having a 3/8" swivel joint as opposed to a U-joint for your ratchet - and an assortment of extentions.

Sure it's easier with the motor on a stand. But it's def not faster.

Good luck!

Yes, you can replace the CIS without lowering the engine. I just got done doing it. Yes, it's a bit of a pain, but it can be done.

But dropping the motors on these cars is so easy. Why "build a ship in a bottle" if you don't have to?
-Chris

Thanks, for the info. I tried last night but could not get to fit. Like trying to push a square peg through a round hole.
I might remove the boot to see if that will help.
Otherwise I will just do the partial drop as it seems like can acomplish that with having to disconnect everything.

Even if you are very skilled in mechanical skills, it's frustrating to do; hard on your back and knuckles.
You run the risk of creating vac leaks that are harder to trace later.
Things are very congested and a partial drop will help. Check the pressure switch, breather cap and thermostat 0-ring while you're at it.
Take your time and be patient; swivel sockets with long extension are a must.

Thanks Gunter.
When I had the engine out, I replaced the breather gasket and used an rubber o-ring for the oil light switch on top. Should I have used copper? A copper washer that size was not readily available in my area.
Where is the pressure switch and thermostat o-ring? Isn't the thermostat located in the wheel well?

Several ways to do it........
 

JCC,

There are several ways to achieve your goal as you can attest to the different suggestions you have received. You could either do it with a partial drop, complete engine drop, or in-situ for removing/installing a complete CIS unit. Each individual method mentioned offer different degree of convenience and efficiency to complete the job. You make the final decision to which procedure you'll be more comfortable performing.

Then ask yourself later after completing the project this question: If I would do this again, what would I do to make it easier and more convenient? You'll probably do something the same or different from others. This was my choice:
Picture of an SC 3.0 liter engine running on an engine test stand:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214501093.jpg

I've removed and replaced a complete CIS system with the motor installed in the car and decided never will I do it again. This procedure is not for everyone but for those few individual who want to have an engine completely tested and running before mounting it in the car.

Tony

i replace blown airboxes on 78/79 with the engine in the car all the time. the key is to account for every nut and washer, look down every intake port for objects and turn the engine over a couple of times to check for washers that may slip past an open valve. not a big deal. the inside nut on #6 is the hardest part. 80-83 with the extra lambda crap, i yank it.

I have done it twice.
The first time I had the engine out, the second time I removed the CIS with the engine in but I had to do a partial drop to get it back in.
But the second time I really had a big advantage in having done it before.

An 0-ring on the oil pressure switch (For the oil light) will NOT hold up, besides, a new OPS is cheap and comes with the seal, I think.
If not, it doesn't have to be copper. An Alu crush washer will do nicely.
There are 2 thermostats: One is on top of engine and uses an 0-ring, the other is for the external oil cooler thermostat in the rear wheel well which doesn't require any seals.
Leaks on top of the engine are a lot of times from:
Breather cap,
Breather hose on the cap. (Put a clamp on it)
Oil Pressure Switch. (Not just the seal, the switch itself can leak)
Thermostat 0-ring (Pull the thermostat out to replace the 0-ring) Go here:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/911M/POR_911M_ENGoil_pg3.htm#item11

and look at the photo.

Ignore some of the speed-wizards who can do everything in record time; use common sense and make it as easy as possible meaining: Everything is tight and crowded in the engine compartment, so, give yourself as much room as possible.

Things to watch for to avoid vac leaks are the gaskets from intake runner to head.
The complete CIS is like an octopus and wants to fight you all the way.
What I do:
I leave the rubber boots loose and moveable on the runners (I use a little Vaseline on the inside of the boots so they can move)
Clamps just snug but positioned so that I can reach the screws for tightening later.
Using NEW gaskets, I tighten the runners down on the heads first, then tighten the clamps on the boots. This way I know that the runners are sitting square on the heads.
Inspect/replace any hoses that look worn and tighten clamps as needed.

+1 as I posted above

Why? Time. It's that easy. Dropping the motor is no biggie, but R&Ring the motor is 1/2 day for an experienced tech. And that's on top of R&Ring the CIS.

I really don't understand why everyone gets so uptight about this job. It really does look much worse than it is. The one thing you can do to make the job much more comfortable is to get the car up 3' or so just so you don't have to spend the entire time on your knees. Yes, at one point I was quite practiced at this job, but I distinctly remember the first time: it was one of those very rare working-on-car-moments where I ended up thinking - "huh, now that really wasn't so bad". And, while I'm not really big, at 6'0 and 190lbs I don't consider myself really small either.

It's all relative!
What's easy for some, is not easy for others.
Not everyone has the same skills or mechanical aptitude and some people don't seem to realize that. :)

Just don't violate the ninth major rule of CIS:

If you take the CIS off the engine, do not reinstall it.

Huh..........??

Just another one of these guys trying to burn down his 911 with carbs :rolleyes:

And reduce mileage by one-third. :rolleyes:

I never switched my old car to carbs. I just didn't really like trying to fix the system. I realize that you can fix it methodically and all, but damn it can be a pain.

Sorry for interjecting on a CIS thread.

I wish I would have saw these additional posts, before I started but oh well.

SO, I did a partial drop and installed the CIS yesterday. Took me a couple of hours and finally finished after a couple of F-bombs and few "Help me Jesus!"
The biggest mistake was after finally getting the manifold to sit properly, and tehn realizing that I had 3.2 intake gaskets on there.... here I go again. Pull it partially off and start over.

Well, hopefully the system will work well, otehrwise I probably will switch to carbs.
Thanks for the info and help!

jcc911:
I don't get it.
3.2 intake gaskets have holes for 3 fasteners, 3.0 only have 2.
Hard to miss.
Go at it again and make sure that the mating surfaces are absolutely clean.
I see that you have a '78 with SSIs.
This engine already has the early CIS without Lambda with larger intake runners; it is an ideal candidate for a 964 cam-profile.
With 964 cams plus SSI's and M&K you'd have about 40 additional horses. :)

CIS is very reliable once sorted out and set up right; carbs are another can of worms with terrible gas-mileage.

In order to install my CIS, I had removed a 3.2 intake, which mounted the same as the CIS intake. Not sure what you meant by 3 holes. The difference in the 3.2 gaskets is there is a cut out for the injector, at least that is what I thought.

I need to do this job to address some leaks. In retrospect, would have preferred to remove the whole engine? All those little washers and gaskets, etc. I'm thinking that I'd rather deal with a couple of big bolts than all that little stuff. I'm riding the fence on this one... are the only steps in a partial to remove the coupler and the engine mounts in the back? Maybe loosen the tranny ones? ???

I installed the CIS with a partial drop. The reason I didnt do a full drop was because I just put the engine back in and finsished connecting every thing. SO to disconnect everything I just connected did not thrill me especially if I had another option, i.e. a partial drop.
Dropping the engine/tranny is not that hard, but much more work than a partial. Of course the amount of space you have to work on thinkgs is much less with a partial. However once you have the CIS off, everyting is pretty easy to get to.

To answer your question, I think if I was just installinga CIS, I would probably just do the partial again. The keeps you form draining oil and remofing all of the hoses and electrial connections.

Yes, to do the partial all I did was remove the shift coupler set screw, put the jack in place, and removed the mount bolts. I am not sure how many inches I dropped it, but it was enough to get the manifold in there, and I did not loosen the tranny bolts.

By all means, loosen the transmission bolts couple turns to make it easier.
After all, the angle changes quite a bit when lowering the rear.
Watch the cables and hoses to prevent too much stress.
Have fun. :)

When I had my 2.4 in my 1973, I removed and replaced the entire CIS system without removing motor mounts or dropping the engine. It was relatively easy. Just start removing pieces until you get down to the intake manifold runners