want Quality sound in your car?

[RWebb]

Buy a Bentley (maybe a wrecked one to cut down on the cost a bit) and rip the stereo out of it.

from Wired.com:
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/08/in-car-audio-th.html


a few salient points: Naim (a top British audiophile level company) spent 2 years "...trying to get audiophile sound into one of the worst possible environments for it."

"Car interiors are lousy places for hi-fi audio systems. They're full of complex shapes, reflective surfaces and electrical interference. They've got to overcome the sound of the engine and drone of the road, ... Even a car like the Bentley, with its double-paned glass, whisper-quiet interior ..., poses some serious challenges."

Another issue they do not mention is that each person's listening position is different from everyone elses. Also, each one is offset in the very small compartment, instead of being in the middle (guess that would make McLaren a good choice, eh?).

The speakers are designed and optimised for each particular location.
Also, the amps are run in Class D condition.

Hopefully some of this will trickle down to the aftermarket and improve sound in our 911s.

[and yes many do not want a stereo other than the engine noise, so please spare everyone the copycat posts to that effect]

[mkossler]

Unfortunately, as audiophiles know the listening space dictates 80% of the sound quality. A 911 is spectacularly poor as a listening room, unless you prefer the sweet, sweet sound of unfettered engine. Whoopsie, just got goosebumps .

The Bentley system will have been tuned for a space that bears almost no resemblance to the interior of your 911. The resulting sound will likely provide commensurate satisfaction.

Yours in curmudgeory,

[Zeke]

Given enough speakers, I think I could design a system that could come close to optimizing the sound for multiple seating positions. This would take about 16-20 tweaters and an equal amount (if not more) of mid range in different sizes. Might involve mini, multi directional towers within the cabin. The bass can be a fill in, but still from more than once direction.

Of course, once the volume goes up, this all becomes silly.

Do we need this? (Sorry Randy)

[mkossler]

I'm already feeling a bit poorly for coming off so negatively on Randy's thread.

Milt! Still a huge fan, how's the project? Wish I had more time to hang here and keep track of things...

I'm not sure of your background in this stuff, but it's a lot harder than it looks. Addressing the lobing effects created by many point sources that produce a very complex interference pattern is job one. Each source will interact with the other sources to produce nodal and anti-nodal points that either suppress or amplify, respectively, the frequencies from said point source (AKA speaker). The result is big variances in the apparent volume of certain frequencies within very short distances - you can rock your head and hear very different apparent responses.

The D'Appolitto array was an example of one configuration designed to address the issue, and provide relatively even off-axis (areas not directly in front of the speaker, either vertically or horizontally) response across the available frequency range. Unfortunately, it's designed for traditional stereo / home theater listening positions. It's really freakin' complicated for a car interior.

Then again, you might already know all this and more.

[imcarthur]

There’s having tunes in your car & then there’s having real music. Naim has never been my fav but they do have the capabilities to put together a decent system. I shudder a bit at the Class D amps but they are much, much better than in the past.

And the market is there. Not all big money car audio systems are for ghetto trawlers & in a heavy luxe car aimed at a wealthy clientele, it’s a natural. I have heard the Jaguar B&W system & it was very good. And as I have posted before, I have heard a stunning Focal system in a MB wagon that showed me how good a car-fi can get.

The 911 environment can yield a pretty decent sound but because of the space limitations, weight limitations, air volume limitations etc, it is always going to be less than ideal. Well applied DSP technology might up the ante a bit.

Ian

[mkossler]

You know, you just made me think about another possibility, which is near-field placement of the point sources. This approach can overcome (I think mostly from psycho-acoustic masking but I'm pretty much going over my head at this point) harmonics from reflections and lobing effects, especially the dreaded third-order dissonant harmonic.

The key would be placement that supports the intended wavelength, nearer for high and farther away for lower frequencies. This approach would unfortunately be likely effective for seating positions in front or back, and not both - in other words, ideal for the 911. Okay, now you've got me cogitating...

[mkossler]

By the way, there are now hybrid amplifiers like BASH that can offset some of the disadvantages of D-Class, without the brown-out characteristics of A-Class. That's the easier part.

[joe payne]

I'm in the process of adding a little more bottom end to my stereo as this topic has come up.

I'm going to wire it so it's easy to remove. Although it only weighs in at 8 lbs.

I do love the sound of my car under certain driving conditions, but when just cruising on the freeway or stuck in traffic I like to crank up the tunes!

[imcarthur]

I know. I sell Bashed subwoofers. And our Pro speakers use Bash amps very successfully. That's why I said they are better than before. They still fail (in my mind) next to a good hifi amp.

Ian

Randy:

Here's an OT link for you Grande Utopia EM

[khamul02]

Step 1 loose those crappy ill placed rear speakers.
Step 2 somehow aim your door/component speakers more appropriately for proper imaging
Step 3 Use a low noise amplifier to push all of your speakers (crossed over appropriately)
Step 4 Add a sub to provide adequate mid bass
Step 5 Add a sub for low end bass
Step 6 Buy a decent head unit, cables, and speaker wires
Step 7 Make sure you use large enough ground and power wires
Step 9 enjoy your new stereo as it drowns out the majesty of that flat six!

[ninesixfour]

I like good sound in my other cars but in the P I prefer the sound of the engine and exhaust. I have some small JL Audio subs and 2 amps for sale if anyone's interested. Drop me a PM.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by mkossler

You know, you just made me think about another possibility, which is near-field placement of the point sources. This approach can overcome (I think mostly from psycho-acoustic masking but I'm pretty much going over my head at this point) harmonics from reflections and lobing effects, especially the dreaded third-order dissonant harmonic.

The key would be placement that supports the intended wavelength, nearer for high and farther away for lower frequencies. This approach would unfortunately be likely effective for seating positions in front or back, and not both - in other words, ideal for the 911. Okay, now you've got me cogitating...

Near field. Novel, eh? No, I don't know dick about this stuff, but I'll try anything! What made me think of the "concept" was how some dance clubs have the sound so well handled that you can carry on a conversation on the periphery, but get the "feel" on the dance floor.

I have to believe that speaker dynamics have progressed to the point that they can move "local" air.

[RWebb]

Matty - how about some line sources (yes I am a Maggie person). They might even be a go on the A and C pillars.

My point is not that you could really tear apart a Bentley - but that some thngs will trickle down thru the aftermarket. Tuneable speakers makes a LOT of sense to me.

DSP definitely.

I have plans for my car that include so-so sound and little bass - British min-monitors anyone?

[Nickatnyt]

Only prima donnas feel the need to spend a ridiculous amount of money on a freakin car stereo. $1,000 would be plenty adequate in anybody's P-car for those rare times when music is needed (ie, stuck in traffic). Besides, I would rather be in my Avalanche stuck in traffic than my SC, as it belongs on the open road with windows down and rpms between 4 and 5k when the stereo is off-limits no matter what the g/f says.

[EarlySport]

How about a pair of quality open back headphones? Open back phones still let you hear what's going on outside ( assuming moderate volume listening levels ).

And this coming from a guy who built IASCA winning car stereo systems for 10 years.. :-)

If you seriously want to get up to speed on what's possible in car audio go visit a major regional sound off event, and listen to some cars. People have been doing this competitively for a long time now..

[kiwiokie]

I recently purchased a set of used Recaro seats circa mid-'80's that have a full range driver in each side of the head rest. I have yet to connect them in the car but when I hooked them up to a receiver and CD player in the house the sound was surprisingly good. Initially I did not plan to hook them up and even considered removing them and reupholstering the headrests. After listening to them I changed my mind. The impression is very much like a pair of headphones. Interesting concept but they would definitely need some low end help.

[khamul02]

Ah iasca and usac, those where the days . . . Luckily we out grew them

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by EarlySport

How about a pair of quality open back headphones? Open back phones still let you hear what's going on outside ( assuming moderate volume listening levels ).

And this coming from a guy who built IASCA winning car stereo systems for 10 years.. :-)

If you seriously want to get up to speed on what's possible in car audio go visit a major regional sound off event, and listen to some cars. People have been doing this competitively for a long time now..

I've been close enough to a few of those "competition" cars. Not quite what you'd want for classical music or many other genres. I think the point here is to fill the cabin with balanced sound, not the whole neighborhood.

The most ridiculous competition I have seen is who can and how long it takes to blow the windows out of the car. I saw people standing around the car holding the glass to keep it intact for as long as possible.

[RWebb]

I agree.

2nd, headphones are fine -- for those who can tolerate them - I can't. Hate having stuff on my ears or eyes, etc.

re "those rare times when music is needed (ie, stuck in traffic)" -- To me, music is great to have on extended freeway drives. A long trip down to mid-Cal for Treffen on the fwy is not something I look forward to. But taking the twisties all the way down uses up too much time. ... just one example.

Another good use for a "stereo" is to monitor weather conditions on the radio. In Oregon, and much of the US, you can be breezing along in good weather and hear that a blizzard is headed your way. In W. Oregon that means you can't get over the mtn. passes. In E. Ore. and most of the inter-mountain West the entire road system can be shut down.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by RWebb

Another good use for a "stereo" is to monitor weather conditions on the radio. In Oregon, and much of the US, you can be breezing along in good weather and hear that a blizzard is headed your way. In W. Oregon that means you can't get over the mtn. passes. In E. Ore. and most of the inter-mountain West the entire road system can be shut down.

I hope your radio stations are better than the SoCal ones. Not much need for weather reports around here, but the traffic report would take a full time slot to be complete and up to date. They miss about half the incidents (at least I seem to encounter a lot of problems never mentioned). And the mid CA stations are just little guys playing mostly to the very local market. This is what cell phones are for. Get on the Net and get top flight info on weather and traffic whenever you stop for gas or....

But, if you'd like some tunes, there's hardly a unit out there anymore that doesn't have an iPod interface and a CD. And many now have Bluetooth. This is all handy stuff in a car.

Besides, all forms of audio earwear that use both ears are illegal in CA and I suspect in most other places as well. In fact, that goes for bicycles as well, but you wouldn't believe the amount of idiots tooling along on their bike with ear buds and couldn't hear an approaching car or train. I'm not gonna get into the motorcycle helmet thing. You really can't tell who's got 'phones inside their lid these days.

That's frighteningly stupid.

Back to the stereo thing: I have not noticed an emergency vehicle more than once (and once is enough) because of the radio and windows up. And I don't play it loud either. So, no sounds in the car for me for safety except on occasion and when the traffic is light.