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1972 Rust

Hi, I'm looking at a 1972 911T this weekend to buy. I have a couple of questions before I physicaly see the car. The pictures of it look great! Where are the hidden areas I should I look for rust? What are the desired options for this year? I can see by the pics it has the S appearance package. Does that also include the suspension upgrade.

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Old 09-04-2008, 04:14 AM
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The rockers just above the jack post and the front part of the suspension pan are the classic sites for rust. I've found that my '72 had less rust in the right side rockers because the oil tank appears to block a lot of the debris accumulated there from the rear wheels. I would use an ice pick and a magnet to proble these spots carefully. Many POs will hide the rust with lots of bondo and paint and pass the car along to the next unsuspecting owner.

If the rust extends significantly beyond these areas I would walk away. These repairs are time consuming if you do them yourself and extremely expensive to pay someone else to do it.

My car had some delux options like tinted windshield and rocker panel covers as well as front sway bar, but no fog lamps.
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Old 09-04-2008, 04:29 AM
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rust

purchased a very nice 72 a few months ago with minimal amount of appearance rust. but during inspection in the rear package shelf and back seat ...all of which is covered with upholstery and insulation as well as the engine compartment insulation pad.... i found serious rust everywhere. in fact i had to cut out and replace the entire area...a very time consuming project. the car had one repaint many years ago, been parked inside since and seldom driven. so i suggest that you thoroughly inspect all areas for rust///there are so many places in the early cars for rust to hide..
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Old 09-04-2008, 04:56 AM
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This is just from the underside



Ignore the red lines and red letters. For rust damage focus on the BLUE areas:

1. Battery tray area / front suspension
2. Front wheel well Inspect the fender joing panel.
3. Underside of the drivers pedals
4. Jack receiving area
5. Rear wheel well. Make sure you take the wheel off and put your head in there and look towards the front of the car. You should be able to see all the way to the door post. *take a flashlight with you. Spend some time in there checking around.
6. Underside of backseats

For Accident areas focus on the GREEN areas A and B:

Also may I suggest while you are under the car look at areas A and B. Check and make sure that the seam welds are not crimped or bent. You want these seam welds to mate together nice and smoothly. If not look deeper for accident damage.

I would actually suggest you follow those seam welds all the way around the car and make sure they aren't banged up. There will likely be some spots where people used the seam welds to jack the car up that will mess up the flow of the weld.

I'll make a topside rust lookout area in a little bit.

Rich
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Old 09-04-2008, 05:29 AM
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Rich that is an excellent diagram of where to look for rust! Once you post the topside rust diagram I am recommending this thread for the PelicanWiki.
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Old 09-04-2008, 05:54 AM
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From inside the rear wheel wells, reach forward to the bottom of the door latch panels, where they join the rocker panels. There is a so-called "kidney pan," which acts as a reinforcement at the rear of the rocker. The valley formed by the forward face of the kidney pan, the rear face of the latch panel and the top of the rocker is a tell tale area. Once there is rust through there (very common for cars in the Northeast), the inner longintudinal frame members become exposed to the elements, and often rust out. A modest rust hole in the above-described valley can be a sign of big problems inside. If you are not sure of how to check for this, it is essential that you have someone who knows check.

Sometimes the valley will be filled with dirt, and difficult to find without a substantial cleaning. There can be a nasty surprise under the dirt, after it is removed, too.

The entire door latch panel on 911s, including the section where the latch itself is bolted, is unprotected from road spray, very vulnerable to rust and expensive to fix right. Although the 72 models have a significant number of zinc coated panels, the latch panel, sadly, is not one of them.
Old 09-04-2008, 07:50 AM
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OK from the top:








1B) is the top side of #1. from the first diagram above

7) is the area below the headlight

8) is inside the headlight bucket

9) In the photo is the bumper mount bracket for 1974 and newer cars, rust develops here in the later cars. Don't worry early car guys this area is also prone to rust in earlier cars except then it is the battery boxes.

10) is an area that on later cars 1974 and up a tube runs along the top of the inner fender here and has a tendency to catch dirt and water. Leading to rust. I'm not sure if early cars suffer this same fate.

11) This is the fender joining panel. All years can and do rust here.

12) Is the lower corners of the windshield. Hard to see with the window in the car, but check it closely for cracking or lifting paint. Make sure the window gasket is fit tightly.
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Old 09-04-2008, 08:03 AM
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7) Below Headlight

12) Lower corners of windshield.

13) Bottom of fender. Check both the inside and the outside.

14) Rocker Panels. Check entire rocker panel but make a real effort to poke around in the jack receiving area as mentioned above.

15) is on the inside of the car. This is the area that someone mentioned is rusted in their car above. It is the luggage compartment in the back. Tough to check but try and pull up some carpet and check as closely as you can.

16) The rear tailight housings and supporting frame have a tendency to rust as they catch a lot of rain and dirt.

19) Lower corners of rear window. Not an easy one to see with the windows in the car but check it closely for lifting paint or bubbling.

The GREEN C is another accident damage check spot. Look closely where the drip rail comes to an end. If the paint is cracking double and triple check for accident damage.

It is a good idea to bring a kitchen magnet with you and some tissues. Lay the tissue against the car then put the magnet on the tissue. Now pull on the tissue and see if the magnet sticks equally as strong throughout the area. If you notice the magnet slide check closely for bondo repairs.
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Last edited by Rich76_911s; 09-04-2008 at 08:24 AM..
Old 09-04-2008, 08:14 AM
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17) Is the pedal box. Pull up the carpet in this area and get under there as best as possible. Bring that flashlight. Also if you can unscrew the wooden board down there and see what is behind there it is a good idea. Not a dumb idea to check the passenger side as well.

18) is a spot that car rust because of a leaking windshield gasket. You really won't be able to inspect this area, but I wanted to point it out. Ask the owner if they ever get drips from this area when the car is in the rain. If the answer is yes expect to find rust in area 12 and 18.
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Old 09-04-2008, 08:19 AM
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16) Just another view of the rear tail light housing that you have to check.

19) Rear window gasket again.

20) firewall behind the engine is worth checking.

The GREEN C and D are both areas to check for accident damage.

C) Check for cracks in the paint and use the tissue - magnet method to check for bondo..

D) Check this area make sure it looks as it should. Make sure both sides look the same.. No bondo etc.

E) Check the area that is missing in this photograph. You don't want any dents or waveyness in this area. If it has waves in it check closer for accident damage.

OK that is all I can think of for right now. I am sure there are some other areas worthy of checking. But this should be a good start.
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Old 09-04-2008, 08:37 AM
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Outstanding -- and done as only somebody back East could do it.

Everybody hit the Wiki button to get this thread in.
Old 09-04-2008, 01:16 PM
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Old 09-04-2008, 06:42 PM
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The '72 does have a galvanized tub even though the body panels are not. I removed the kidney-shaped rocker support and the targa bar filler plate, which were rusted to bits, from the tub and the tub was pristine. I was very impressed. Too bad the body panels didn't get the same treatment.
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sballard View Post
The '72 does have a galvanized tub even though the body panels are not. I removed the kidney-shaped rocker support and the targa bar filler plate, which were rusted to bits, from the tub and the tub was pristine. I was very impressed. Too bad the body panels didn't get the same treatment.

That's really interesting, and consistent with what I've seen, too. It's one reason to avoid the Karmann built cars, and all 911s built before 1970. (1970 and 1971 Porsche built cars had the zinc coated panels, whereas the Karmann built cars did not, probably because of the different welding methods needed with the zinc coated panels.)

By the way, it's a hot dip zinc coating, not an electrolytically applied coating, so it's not really "galvanizing," to the best of my understanding.
Old 09-05-2008, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom F2 View Post
That's really interesting, and consistent with what I've seen, too. It's one reason to avoid the Karmann built cars, and all 911s built before 1970. (1970 and 1971 Porsche built cars had the zinc coated panels, whereas the Karmann built cars did not, probably because of the different welding methods needed with the zinc coated panels.)

Source??
Old 09-05-2008, 01:00 PM
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Source??

Factory service manual.

For the hot dip thing, Frere's book.
Old 09-05-2008, 02:27 PM
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what page of the FSM discusses the Karmann built cars?
Old 09-05-2008, 03:13 PM
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Come on these cars don't rust
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Old 09-05-2008, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom F2 View Post
That's really interesting, and consistent with what I've seen, too. It's one reason to avoid the Karmann built cars, and all 911s built before 1970. (1970 and 1971 Porsche built cars had the zinc coated panels, whereas the Karmann built cars did not, probably because of the different welding methods needed with the zinc coated panels.)

By the way, it's a hot dip zinc coating, not an electrolytically applied coating, so it's not really "galvanizing," to the best of my understanding.
While I do not remeber the citation (I think it is Frere's book). as best I recollect P-cars were 100% galvanized by 1976. They started with hidden panels first in the early 70's. The issue was that the Thysen steel, once galanized, would not produce an acceptable top paint coat appearance. It took them to '76 to get it all worked out.
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Old 09-05-2008, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWebb View Post
Outstanding -- and done as only somebody back East could do it.

Everybody hit the Wiki button to get this thread in.
Kurt and Randy Thanks for the compliment. I'd be happy to do this even better for a wiki article if it would help. I did this quick to give the poster as good a place to start as I could. Yes you can say I have had the pleasure of getting to know a few "rust free" east coast treasures.

It would certainly help if someone who has experienced front end damage could give us some pointers on what to look for. I haven't had that enjoyable experience yet.

Oh and my east coast '76 was far far far from being saved by galvinization, as well as the 1980, oh yeah and now the 78 has a couple hints of cancer. When inspecting a car DO NOT assume that because it is galvanized that you are remotely safe.

Rich
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Old 09-05-2008, 07:48 PM
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