Low Mileage Problems on a 20 y/o 911?

yo911 · 10-13-2008, 03:04 PM

I'm considering a 1989 911 with a claimed 20k miles on it. I dont know how much storage time there was (several years stored vs. driven few miles/per year).

Seller claims no leaks which I'd find hard to believe. The seals have got to be dried up. Where should I look for leaks or any other potential problems?

Also, I get suspicious if the speedometer stopped working when mileage claims are that low. This kind of item wouldn't show on a CarFax since they can just drive as many miles as they want then fix it before the next inspection. Does this particular year has issues with speedometers not working or breaking?

Any help appreciated. Thanks.

Yo911

ikarcuaso · 10-13-2008, 03:25 PM

Where are you located? Get a pre-purchase inspection done on the vehicle by a local, reputable air-cooled 911 mechanic. If the seller is unwilling, pass on the car.

porschenut · 10-13-2008, 03:33 PM

Compare the odometer to the appearance of the car, especially the interior. Does it look like a 20k car? Odometer failures are not unheard of, but rare, especially at that mileage level. Always evaluate the appearance in relation to the odometer reading.

Jay H · 10-13-2008, 03:35 PM

A 20,000 mile, 20 year old car will show. Meaning, there will be very little wear and the car should present very well. Even the undercarriage will show limited amounts of built up crud.

It all depends on how the 20,000 miles were put on. If the car was exercised regularily, it should be in nice shape with few leaks. Maintenance due to age must be performed even though the car is not being driven much. i.e., brake fluid flushes and oil changes need to happen on regular intervals.

If the car was used during the first few years, then just put away without any sort of regular use or maintenance, the car might have issues.

I have a 34,000 mile 1990 964 that gets very limited use (about 200 miles per year while in my care). However, I take it out on a regular schedule and insure the car gets completely warmed up on each drive. Fluids are changed on a regular basis as well. The car has been extremely solid and runs like new when I do take it out.

yo911 · 10-13-2008, 03:40 PM

Thanks, gentlemen.

Yes, I am definitely going to have a PPI done for sure, low mileage or not. I know things like checking the pedals, carpets, door handles can help verify the mileage. If these show more than expected wear for a 20 y/o 20k mileage car, I'm a walking.

I was wondering if there was anything in particular with 911s or Porsches that would help me verify mileage and issues to be aware of.

porschenut · 10-13-2008, 03:44 PM

Check the mileage recorded on maintenance records and the Carfax too. That should give you an idea of how the mileage was distributed over the years.

Jay H · 10-13-2008, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yo911

I was wondering if there was anything in particular with 911s or Porsches that would help me verify mileage and issues to be aware of.

911 pedal covers are made of relatively soft rubber. Higher mileage cars will have well worn covers, or even covers worn through to the medal pedal below.

Driver's seat side bolsters show wear in a hurry. At 20k, there should be minimal wear.

The later Carreras (and 964 & 993's for that matter) have leather covered shift knobs. The leather wears quickly, so at 20k, again the leather should have most of it's dye left intact.

Front bumpers and hoods attract lots of stone chips. The lower the miles, the fewer the chips.

If you feel ambitious and the owner lets you, remove the speedometer and there should be a date stamp on the back of the speedometer that matches the year of manufacture of the car. Keep in mind if it's an early 1989, it may have a 1988 date stamp.

chrisp · 10-13-2008, 03:54 PM

I wouldn't pay a premium for a 20 year old car with 20k miles on it. For me the threshold is about 2k-3k miles per year unless there's documentation of proper long-term storage. Ideally if the story goes that it's never been stored long term and was driven regularly then it should have had at least 35-40 oil changes (every 6 months independent of mileage). I wonder what the seller would say if you asked how many its had. If they say "every 5k miles" or something like that then they are either lying to support a fictitious 20k miles or the car was poorly maintained.

Jay H · 10-13-2008, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisp

I wouldn't pay a premium for a 20 year old car with 20k miles on it.

I agree unless you are after a concours car that would benefit from very little wear and tear. Start driving it a lot and the premium you paid will disappear very quickly verses a car that has more mileage.

Age will even take it's toll on these cars that have low mileage. You may find that these types of cars have rubber, plastic, leather and vinyl issues from just age. Also, shocks can start leaking, brake calipers can seize up, etc. etc. Tires are good for about 10 years before they really start to become unsafe from dry rot. Belts should all be replaced at this point and a thorough checking of rubber hoses should be done. I'd toss the rubber brake lines too even if they look fine yet.

This all doesn't mean this is not a nice car, you just have to continue to do your homework even though it has low mileage.

yo911 · 10-13-2008, 08:16 PM

Again, great comments. I didn't think of things like shifter knobs and driver's door side seat edges. More good things to look for.

More info on the car:
White linen/leather interior
Targa
Claimed 2 owners
No service records
Repainted 10 y/o, which dealer says is "just okay"
NY most of it's CarFax documented life, now in NE

The repaint part leaves me with a big ?? Why at only 10 yrs a new paint job and only "okay"? If a dealer admits in an ad that it's only okay, it must not be very good. Maybe even "bad!"

I just didn't get from this dealer that he wasn't being straight up with me. I know a bit about it's history since I know where he bought it from...like the repainted history part. And I know the maximum he paid from the previous dealer. I was trying to see if he'd be honest and tell me more history. I kept asking him if there's anything in it's history, any records of any modifications, changes. He just kept saying no and went on and on about the CarFax report in answer to my question regarding service records. I really didn't like his answers and the vibe I was getting.

livi · 10-14-2008, 12:28 AM

Welcome to the forum!

I agree with the guys above that would hesitate to pay a large premium for such a car. Unless, of course, you plan to get a garage queen. If you are just looking for a nice Carrera to drive and pile up a bit of mileage on, I would go with something else. Condition, service records and PPI is much more important than mileage.

mnmasotto · mnmasotto's Garage

Two years ago I bought a very low mileage 1987 Carrera. The cosmetics of the car were amazing. I figured I paid a 10K premium for that low mileage. Although the car had very little mileage, the tiny rubber bits were twenty years old and eventually showed it. Initially, the car had a very small oil leak at one of the valve covers. As I drove the car over the next 6 months additional oil leaks sprung up and cracked rubber issues appeared quite frequently. The original clutch went out at 30K and my valve guides were gone by 60K. I know, my experiences may not be typical, however if I did it again I probably would not pay that extra price premium. I would buy a well kept car with 80K-100K.

Just my thoughts.

robert walsh · 10-14-2008, 05:48 AM

I also bought a low milage vehicle that was stored for 6 years, spent quite a bit to get the fuel system straightened out, as those mechanicals are out of my personal mechanical ability, but on the up side I didn't get whacked on the low milage $$$ premium as I knew enough to identify the problems before purchase.

Wickd89 · 10-14-2008, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mnmasotto

Two years ago I bought a very low mileage 1987 Carrera. The cosmetics of the car were amazing. I figured I paid a 10K premium for that low mileage. Although the car had very little mileage, the tiny rubber bits were twenty years old and eventually showed it. Initially, the car had a very small oil leak at one of the valve covers. As I drove the car over the next 6 months additional oil leaks sprung up and cracked rubber issues appeared quite frequently. The original clutch went out at 30K and my valve guides were gone by 60K. I know, my experiences may not be typical, however if I did it again I probably would not pay that extra price premium. I would buy a well kept car with 80K-100K.

Just my thoughts.

I bought a '89 with 96K and it was nearly perfect. One oil return line and that was it. Two years of perfect driving, and the money I spent on the car was by choice, not because it was needed. I really think the fact that it was driven at a nice low pace for 17 years made the difference: no real issues, no cracked rubber, etc,etc...
Maintenance records are important. I have all the records from 9K miles on. I guess I missed the first 2-3 oil changes...

tcar · 10-14-2008, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yo911

NY most of it's CarFax documented life, now in NE.

Where in NE, Omaha-Lincoln area? Which dealer? Should get a PPI...

Macroni · Macroni's Garage

Why would a 20,000 mile car need a repaint? I had a 48,000 car and the paint was spectacular. This makes no sense. I suspect this car has been on a diet. PPI is a must!

I also had to replace all the oil return lines @ 30,000 miless; as they had begun to seep.

yo911 · 10-14-2008, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mnmasotto

Two years ago I bought a very low mileage 1987 Carrera. The cosmetics of the car were amazing. I figured I paid a 10K premium for that low mileage. Although the car had very little mileage, the tiny rubber bits were twenty years old and eventually showed it. Initially, the car had a very small oil leak at one of the valve covers. As I drove the car over the next 6 months additional oil leaks sprung up and cracked rubber issues appeared quite frequently. The original clutch went out at 30K and my valve guides were gone by 60K. I know, my experiences may not be typical, however if I did it again I probably would not pay that extra price premium. I would buy a well kept car with 80K-100K.

Just my thoughts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert walsh

I also bought a low milage vehicle that was stored for 6 years, spent quite a bit to get the fuel system straightened out, as those mechanicals are out of my personal mechanical ability, but on the up side I didn't get whacked on the low milage $$$ premium as I knew enough to identify the problems before purchase.

You two bring up some very good points. I was considering this car due to its low mileage when in fact it can be a bad thing. Since the car is still sitting in showrooms, being driven only for demos and transport, leaks don't have a chance to reveal themselves.

However, were those leaks still cheaper to fix then a rebuilds that might be required on a 100+k mileage car, like trannys and engines? Now that would run $5-12K.

mnmasotto,
When you replaced the clutch and valve guides do you think it was because it was in storage w/o being driven much?

RW,
Do you also think the problematic fuel system was due to long-term storage also?

Hope you gentlemen don't mind my asking these questions. I'm a newbie to Ps and can only apply what I know from regular vehicles.

BTW, I talked with the previous dealer. He said the PO decided to repaint the whole car after a panel got scratched. The paint job had some overspray on the moldings and door jambs. Poor prep work apparently.

So, a repaint, no service records, suspicisously low mileage. At least if there were service records, I'd be more comfortable. It almost sounds like the PO had this car as a true "Garage Queen", not caring to drive it but to keep it pretty in the garage. Low quality paint job to cover up a scratch? Then repaint the whole damn car?!

Anyhow, I'm going to have someone check it out for me first. If things seem okay, I'll investigate further....with trepidation of course.

robert walsh · 10-15-2008, 01:44 AM

The fuel system in my car had problems do to storage and lack of consistent use, less than 300 miles over 6 years, never really got out enough and stretched it's leg's like they are meant to. Got to keep them going if you want them to keep going. Old gas plays havoc with most cars, especially these injection systems.

carrera turbo · 10-15-2008, 02:00 AM

heres the wheel wells and trunk of a 70k car thats been well maintained with original paint a low mileage cars tells you its low mileage. seat bolster pedals etc.

you will know

ed

avery car tells its story you just have to listen

javadog · 10-15-2008, 04:50 AM

Low mileage isn't necessarily a bad thing. This whole business of seals drying up is just crap. I have several low mileage cars which are dry as a bone. The rubber and plastic and everything else on them is just fine, too. What is a concern is when fuel is left in a car for a long time, or a car is not run for years.

What bugs me about this car is the lack of history and the repaint. Nobody but a fool would repaint a car just to fix a scratch on one panel. They also wouldn't paint it poorly. You need to get to the bottom of this issue, by finding and talking to the previous owners. The dealer will likely know doodly squat about the car.

The other thing to be concerend about is the lack of records. For a car to be worth a premium for low mileage, you HAVE to be able to substantiate the claim with records. Again, seek out the owners and learn what you can.

I'd be suprised if this car was 100% what it is claimed to be.

JR