Some guys have very little car control experience.
Read some driving books.
Get a hold of your local PCA for driving instruction.:)
Let your buddy overdrive the local AX track, good fun to watch too.;)

not a fast driver either, but i do like to let it hang out every now and then...ah, the rear end.
if its a slide, stay in the gas, not floor it, that could make it come on around if you have the power or if you are in it too far. a steady foot will let the car come up to speed and the back end come back in in a more controlled manor. too sudden of a lift and again, your going backward.
if you want to stay in the slide, put some power down

fish tail- once again, steady foot and try to keep up with the steering or both feet in if the monentum has the car clear of hitting anything.

i always just kept on the throttle, carefully feathering it as needed to keep in control and basically stay pointed in the right direction. and it's more fun that way.

Note to self: Do NOT move to Alaska :)

Although I live in snow-less Florida now, my first six years of driving where in Michigan in my 85 RX-7 and 83 944. Every chance I had to drive in fresh snow out in a parking lot or something like that I took. The best thing that I found for sliding/fishtail was to do the same that emac and a couple of others have posted which is to keep your eyes where you want to go. If the tail of the car is sliding to the right turn the wheel to the right and stay in gear and on the power. If you moderate the power and don't over correct then you should be fine. Key word is should be. Just my 2 cents. SmileWavy

classic! very good retort my man.

why does jorian pick on you and others???? because hes an uber pompous ass with about ZERO track time, and generally POOR people skills. dont worry their are plenty of happy joyful intelligent, people here that will steer you in the right direction(pun).

your question is not far fetched by any means. many many people have had the uber snoooty attitude "i can race anything" and "my poo doesnt stink" and they are now DEAD because of the rear engined nazi slot cars inherent handling characteristics. EVEN PEOPLE WITH LOTS OF INSTRUCTION AND TRACK TIME!

now since i have been off road racing all my life, bikes buggies trucks(7 dirty bikes, a quad, a score legal class 8 truck presently in stable) and having raced a 280-z datsooon, and run my 87 cab from hell at 3 major tracks in the southwest at mega mach see god in technicolor speeds, i feel i have a lil room to impress upon you some learned insight.

first off road racing your ass end is always going somewhere, and thats actually good. kind of like drifting on asphalt. in our class 1/2-1600 score car we ran the car in 3rd gear just about 95% of the time. always had another gear for straights that went downhill. found that pinning it all the time wasnt the answer. feathering throttle and always allowing more pedal for when you really did need the uummmph to get you out of a tight spot.

"when in doubt ? ACCELLERATE!" comes to mind. lifting always caused problems. pinning the mofo to the floorboard got us out of lots of problems.

on the pavement/track same applies in many ways. pinning a 911 into a corner is not very wise unless its a banked track (calif mtr. speedway) and then you should leave some throttle and allow throttle pin movement if you feel the ass end start washing out.

have seen enough people do the standard 911 ass goes wide right, they have no more throttle, they over correct, and the next thing BAMM into the wall. very common and DAMN SCAREY TO WATCH! witnessed last time at calif mtr speedway from about 60 yards while standing in the infield(we're special) with bill johnson photog for patrick mtr sports here in phx. never ever again do i want to see what i saw. a 911 straight into the wall at 150mph plus is not good and really really REALLY opened my eyes to what can happen. from the apex going into turn 2 there, bites ALOT OF PEOPLE HARD! alot pin the throttle and then lift, this being another real real REAL BAD MOVE! never ever lift! always leave gas pedal to pin it and power yerself out of the problem.

hope that helps.

Classes really helped me learn my BMWs limitations. Thick skin will help here.

I was thinking all alone and by my self...I am sure glad the bureaucracy was thinner when the Write Bro were learning to fly !!
Other wise they would have had to go to school AND LEAN TO FLY , get a licence from some one that did no know how...
Or it just would not have been allowed because OSHA had deemed it on safe
Or Green Peace would have outlawed it cause they were going to run over Grass hoppers on take off and hit too many birds in flight and smash too many air molecules with the prop ..and ..and and .................

Brotok,

Not trying to defend jorian (he can do that on his own), but I think his comment was partly inspired by your pretty vague descriptions. I tried reading your original post a couple times, and it's very difficult to understand the circumstances you describe (though 89911 made a good effort). While physics is physics, your friend's 4wd TT and your SC are pretty different cars, handling-wise. And based upon your descriptions, I'm not sure you're comparing apples to apples.

I'd second the recommendation that you start off with reading a couple high performance driving books, and then try to describe the scenarios you've mentioned. Of the one masraum recommends, Paul Frere's book on Sportscar and Competition Driving is pretty good (though a bit technical, as he was an engineer). Bondurant's book is pretty poorly written. I haven't read the others. There's one that was written by Senna (can't recall the title) which I found interesting, too. The books may help answer your questions. At the very least, they'll help you describe what's going on a little better.

Hard for people to be too helpful if we're talking about different things (and not even realizing it).

The easiest answer is to keep the front wheels pointed the direction you want the car to go.

And your friend needs some instruction.

I didn't get a hurump outa that guy......
 

+1 well said

"can't we all just get along.....":cool:

Turn left to go right. Thats what Doc Hudson says.

Brotok, I appreciate you bringing up this topic and hope you are only encouraged by the good intentions of the majority of the membership (community) here. I have recently had the same question dogging me. After being involved in DE s here in the Houston area only and having gone sideways a couple times I realize that more experience with slides (fishtail as you say) is the only way to get good at catching it. I am going to suggest to our local PCA that we consider putting on a session on a wet pad so we can get that valuable experience without going off at the track..........Garry

A four wheel drive car with state of the art electronics to save you might be different.

Slamming on the brakes and gettin in the throtle might triger some front wheel drive characteristics on a newer car. On a front wheel drive car getting in the gas hard can help pull one out of a slide.

I was lucky to attend a BMW driver school where I was taught how to handle a slide and keep it from becoming a' fish tail'. I still consider this the most important driving skill I have ever learned.

Most know to look into and steer into a turn. The problem is most of us over correct making the car go toward the other side with more momentum and turn the slide into a fish tail. Some times going in to the wall on the other side or going back an forth until we catch it or go off course.

It dose require some practice.

Part of the secret in my mind is not over correcting and catch it as soon as the car starts to rotate back. We need to get the wheel back to straight sooner. Most of us hold the the correction to long which makes the cars momenum carry the car past straight to the other side.

It is the cars momentum taking it in the opposite direction that puts one into the wall so to speak.

Also, do not let off throttle suddenly during the maneuver, this reduces rear traction further and adds to the problem. In some cases you can add to the throttle (drifters).

I was lucky enough to buy a 944 a couple of years after grad school, and within a year of that did my first track driving at Lime Rock. My prep was several viewings of the Skip Barber video Going Faster! I also bought and read the Bondurant book. All of that was in 1987. I still watch the video a couple of times every winter/off season, and I also recommend my friend's book, mentioned here, Secrets of Solo Racing. These are two great resources for basics.

I strongly recommend AX or AX schools in addition to track DE's for those trying to build a solid foundation. Pro driving schools may also be great, for example if Porsche still has one down at Barber.

Searching for answers from the internet is not the most leveraged way to acquire skills, and may not be that great for gaining knowledge from experts. For the most part, I think the biggest bang for the buck is PCA AX if there is not an active group nearby. If one sets his/her sights on becoming an instructor, that can help as well.

Hit the nail on the head with this advice!

I did a DE this year and we were doing time trials in the afternoon. I was on street tires and was probably pushing a bit too hard, I was in a high-G left hand sweeper onto the front straight, the rear of the car wiggled a bit (no big deal) but then I hit one of the many small bumps and the rear slid out big time doing about 90-95 mph. I was quick enough to catch it but did a tank slapper/fishtail back and forth a couple times because I slighly over-corrected on the slide.

The important thing is that I kept the car under a reasonable amount of control and managed to gather it up after a couple dramatic changes of direction.
Smooth steering input is key, I was a little too quick with the steering input which caused me to over-correct. I did however keep my foot in the throttle (not full throttle though) and I am confident that had I lifted I would have certainly spun and bad things would have happened thereafter.

The bottom line is get on the track or an AX course and practice practice practice, that's the only way to learn this stuff. Books are useful for understanding the theory and terminology, but you have to learn the practical application first hand.

Or Alberta, Canada; some great red-neck drivers. :(
And for some real excitement, there is the regular rush-hour Demolition Derby on the Metrpolitan BLVD in Montreal. :rolleyes:

Lots of fenders there that need fixing and painting. :D

I think I am all alone out here too No race tracks, just bear tracks....and they are always behind me.........

The kids now call it DRIFTING, not fishtailing.

Some of the best practice can be had by finding a pro school with a skid car that has the hydraulic outriggers mounted on it. You'll find that slow hands are best and overcorrecting can be the devil particularly in cars like ours with the motor slung out over the rear axle (think "pendulum" and you're there).

Enjoy and I second (third, fourth, fifth?) the advice to head to an event with seasoned instructors well versed with your vintage and prep level of car to get the best real world advice and practice far away from curbs, minivans full of kids, and John Law.

-JWL