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-   -   Fiberglass sux or how ruin 2 deck lids in 2 days (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/443263-fiberglass-sux-how-ruin-2-deck-lids-2-days.html)

euro911sc 11-25-2008 08:45 PM

Fiberglass sux or how ruin 2 deck lids in 2 days
 
First the story: So... I sold my early turbo knock off that was FG bonded to a metal frame because I wanted an all FG version w/o the rubber lip:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1227672572.jpg

It was nice, but not exactly what I wanted...

Then I watched the FS board for months and months... and months... and finally I got what I was looking for shipped across the country to me. Note to self: sell your part AFTER getting the replacement! Problem was it got cracked in shipment... and it fit like crap! It would not even stay shut... dismay sets in...

But, wait! Another one comes up for sale and I can go get it vs. having it shipped cross country! Ok fine got it... um... it does not fit either... but at least it will stay latched provided I'm not driving down the road! Whats wrong here... both of these wings were on working cars at one point :confused:

I contact Gary up in Orlando who makes metal framed Duck tails... $800 and I'm supplying the parts. He does some amazing work and you totally get what you pay for, but that's a new track suspension for me.... lets research:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/247401-bb80sc-tre-autoinno-project-update.html?highlight=duck and
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/427481-duck-tail-cut-n-paste.html

Not a lot to go on but I have a neighbor (ex body man and Vette owner = super fiberglass dude) so with a little encouragement and recently purchased dented Carrera decklid I embarked on my 1st body project:

1) Buy the donor parts; note the crack in the support on the left side in the pic:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1227673546.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1227673630.jpg

2) Put your scrap metal decklid on and get it lined up how you want it. Wow, this thing fits like a glove!!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1227673356.jpg

3) The all FG integrated wing and decklids are really 2 halfs glued together: the top and, you guessed it, the bottom. Cut the bottom half off. Be careful not to cut the edges or the area where the grill attaches:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1227673711.jpg

4) Carefully grind the edges down and generally clean up the FG top half.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1227674190.jpg

5) Test fit... YIKES! I got a long way to go!!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1227674309.jpg

5.5) Repeat 4 & 5 lots of times. Prop your lid up so it is horizontal and do not use clamps (Ignore my pic in that regard). the idea is to bit by bit grind it down so that it fits right on top of the metal with no clamping needed. This is to avoid the FG warping the metal lid as you clamp and bond it, so says my neighbor.

6) Suddenly realize that the whole top half is high centering on the metal surface of the decklid and that you can not sand it down more with out ruining the FG half... ok stop for the night, have a beer, a shower, and ask your neighbor tomorrow what to do.

euro911sc 11-25-2008 09:09 PM

Part 2
 
7) Catch your neighbor as he is taking the trash out before work and have a chat... watch him as he uses a 2x4 to try and subtly shape said metal to get the high points out... naw didn't work... cut it out! go to work and think about this all day long...

8) Mask it off with blue painter's tape. I had a piece of aluminum 1/32 thick and 1" wide (from Lowes) that I could use as a straight edge as it was flexible enough to bend over the curvature of the deck lid. I followed the line of the grill down each side and then marked off 2.75" up from the bottom edge of the lid on both sides. I used my AL straight edge to run a nice line across the bottom of the lid. If you don't have a helper, like me, use your foot on one end and your hand on the other end to hold the edge in place while your 2nd hand draws the line :D Top line is 2" down from the edge of the grill.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1227675824.jpg

Note to self:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1227674879.jpg

9) Cut it out... 1st, I used a hole saw after drilling a pilot hole at the center of each circle to cut the corners. Then I used an air cutoff wheel to cut along the lines. Do not cut the entire line. Cut the line and leave about a 1/4" attached before each circular cut out and leave about 1" attached in the middle of the top and bottom cuts for stability. Then go back and cut the left overs and it comes out very nice. CAREFUL, do not cut through the center support. It is very close to the decklid skin.

Note to self as sparks are flying everywhere: Probably not the greatest idea to use PAPER to mask off your brand new rebuilt engine (<500 miles) from all the dust... where is that fire extinguisher just in case... :rolleyes: I left the lid on the car to provide rigidity during the cutting. I'll put it on during bonding as well to maintain the perfect fit.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1227675289.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1227674956.jpg

10) A test fit revealed a much much better fit, but still a ways to go. I did cut out the FG part where the grill mounts as I intend to use the metal lid mounting for strength and reliability. The current state of the top half:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1227675898.jpg

So... at this point I have two deck lids that are ruined and it only took 2 days :) Over the turkey day break I plan on finishing the fit and bonding it to the metal lid. Then there will be a lot of work making it look good... stay tuned for more adventures!

Best regards,

Michael

P.S. It is interesting to note that the grill opening is about 1/8" off center toward the passenger side in the Factory lid. The FG lid is more on center with regards to the grill opening, but a 1/4" too narrow on both edges. I have chosen to use the metal grill mounting, but it may be possible to use the FG one instead if you are willing to cut the metal hole bigger. It is easier to cut/shape FG though :) Use a good filter mask. FG and resin dust is not good to breath. Get one that has the two filter cartridges on the sides not a useless paper one! If you do this in your garage you will have a 1/4" of dust covering everything.

mede8er 11-26-2008 04:11 AM

Hehhehheh...great morning read...subscribed...:)

vanwyk4257 11-26-2008 07:10 AM

Looks good so far. I wil be watching with much interest since I just bought a junk ducktail and planned on grafting it onto a metal base. Take lots of pictures!

KTL 11-26-2008 07:21 AM

Word to the wise............ it's nice to have the engine out when you're fitting/aligning/adjusting the lid latch. Getting it lined up right and setting the plunger depth right takes some time and you'll find that if you don't have it adjusted well, the lid can be stuck shut! Having the engine out of the way makes releasing the latch MUCH easier.

Sounds stupid to take the engine out to do engine lid install, but I found it saved my butt by a longshot........

dtw 11-26-2008 07:27 AM

Hey I know that blue Carrera decklid...came from one of my cars. Glad to see it live on. Good luck!

JeremyD 11-26-2008 07:30 AM

You may need to eliminate the top of the fiberglass piece.

Zeke 11-26-2008 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremyD (Post 4325853)
You may need to eliminate the top of the fiberglass piece.

That would seem to eliminate a lot of work, but the bond better be good at the leading points!

rnln 11-26-2008 09:33 AM

I bought an all fiberglass tail a while ago and have not have a chance to do anything with it yet. Now you scared me.

ruf-porsche 11-26-2008 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremyD (Post 4325853)
You may need to eliminate the top of the fiberglass piece.


That is why you are having so much trouble. You are gluing the top of the Fibreglass spoiler to the top of the steel lid. If you were gluing the top of the Fiberglass spoiler to the bottom of the steel lid it would be an almost perfect fit.

In essence you are raising the height of the rear lid because now you have two tops.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1227674309.jpg

Zeke 11-26-2008 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruf-porsche (Post 4326152)
That is why you are having so much trouble. You are gluing the top of the Fibreglass spoiler to the top of the steel lid. If you were gluing the top of the Fiberglass spoiler to the bottom of the steel lid it would be an almost perfect fit.

In essence you are raising the height of the rear lid because now you have two tops.

True enough, but if he can get the FG part to conform to the steel shape, he can lower the whole lid with washers on the hinges. I'd take the easier path, whichever it is. I can't see from here. ;)

I think I would have unwrapped the underbracing on the steel lid and mounted it under the glass skin. The exact reverse of what he did with the FG piece to start with.

euro911sc 11-26-2008 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruf-porsche (Post 4326152)
That is why you are having so much trouble. You are gluing the top of the Fibreglass spoiler to the top of the steel lid. If you were gluing the top of the Fiberglass spoiler to the bottom of the steel lid it would be an almost perfect fit.

In essence you are raising the height of the rear lid because now you have two tops.

Quote:

Originally Posted by milt (Post 4326417)
True enough, but if he can get the FG part to conform to the steel shape, he can lower the whole lid with washers on the hinges. I'd take the easier path, whichever it is. I can't see from here. ;)

I think I would have unwrapped the underbracing on the steel lid and mounted it under the glass skin. The exact reverse of what he did with the FG piece to start with.

Yes, that two lid thicknesses thing occurred to me prior to embarking on this journey. The issue was I wanted to use the metal grill area as the FG grill areas had very weak attachment points. Otherwise I would have cut most of the lid down or de-skinned it. Additionally, the FG is 1/2" or more narrower than the metal lid and if I removed the metal skin from the frame I'm not sure I could have gotten it to fit right.

I will have serious problem getting the thickness down to a manageable level where I can feather the wing surfaces into the body lines. I still have much work to do. I may yet loose that top cross bar, but I would rather keep it for bonding strength. A more likely scenario is I bond the whole thing on and end up sanding through half the thickness of that part to get a nice panel to wing line. I currently have some washers between hinges and decklid so I have a little wiggle room there as well. It is a gamble, but I think it will fit.

In the end this adventure may yet be a total loss, but I'm working hard for that not to happen :)

DTW: Nice lid! It will give great service yet again :)

KTL: Yeah that happend to me several times already!! Lucky for me the grill was not on and I could reach in all the way to the latch and mannually unlock it. I'll be leaving that grill off till I'm positive the latch is good to go. Any ideas on how to make an emrgency latch puller? I'm alwasy concerned my cable will break after 25+ years of service...

I'm off tomorrow, obviously, but Friday should bring some good progress on fit... I'll have to grab some more sand pads from good ole Harbour Freight :)

Best regards,

Michael

dtw 11-26-2008 07:06 PM

Sorry about the wavy surface...my dad was helping me trailer the shell and pushed with his full weight right on the decklid. It was damn near perfect before that - glad to see you are able to slice out the wavy section.

You are a bigger man than I - I've dabbled in FG, and that was enough. I bow to your superior kung-fu.

euro911sc 11-26-2008 07:09 PM

Getting closer...
 
My latest fit point:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1227755141.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1227755164.jpg

It actually looks a lot worse in the pics than it is in real life, but still a ways to go. Looks like I'll have at least a 1/4" to build up on the edges to reach the edges of the FG section. I believe that this is actually good as it will help me feather into the body lines easier. At least that is what I keep telling my self :eek:

Shot from above:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1227755381.jpg

Best regards,

Michael

euro911sc 11-26-2008 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtw (Post 4327063)
You are a bigger man than I - I've dabbled in FG, and that was enough. I bow to your superior kung-fu.

:D :D ROTFL :D :D

My master tells me I'm a very good student, but I am far having any skill at this stuff yet... its a 'more time than money' kind of thing with a little 'less brains' thrown in to boot!

Thank your dad for me! I did not have to pay much for the lid due to his excellent work :p

-Michael

euro911sc 12-13-2008 05:34 PM

Back at it!!!
 
Sorry about the delay... holiday season got in the way ;)

So... where were we??? oh yeah... I think I was in hole $250 and nothing to show for it but 2 lids... rather 2 partial lids...

After several rounds of grinding down the FG wing I was getting a little close on one part on the passenger side. So I cut a little more out of the metal lid to allow the FG to drop even lower:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1229217863.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1229217141.jpg

All was well in the world and the fit was getting pretty good IMHO (apparently I was getting worse at taking pictures though...):

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1229217237.jpg

I then began my metal lid prep by bringing it down to metal anywhere I thought I might possible bond too:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1229217358.jpg

THEN IT HIT ME!! I should just mount it here:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1229217446.jpg

MMUUUhhhahahaaaaaaa!!!!! NOT!

After some more wiggling and jiggling I found the latch and had the easiest time adjusting it... for obvious reasons!!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1229217550.jpg

As I was adjusting it I thought of this new novel split grill deck lid design:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1229217606.jpg

After reviewing the other threads I came to the conclusion that I left WAY too much metal on the base lid... so out came the cutoff wheel again!!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1229218093.jpg

Some more grinding and and it was time for the final test fit with the clamp positions I was going to use... mask everything off at this point so if you drop any glue on your car it will be on the tape and not the paint.

on to the next post...

euro911sc 12-13-2008 06:37 PM

So... go get every clamp in your house and pile them up...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1229218238.jpg

realize you don't have enough and go across the street to borrow some more :) clamp the lid in place and scribe on the lid the position you want... a useless action as you will see later...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1229218277.jpg

Now it was time to pull out the goop. the gun for the 8115 Panel Bond was another $90 so I skipped it:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1229218592.jpg

I had to fix some cracks first which gave me some experience using the 8115. It has a work time of 90 minutes so there is no rush.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1229218735.jpg

I'll smooth it out later as needed. To fix the crack you drill a circle at each end of the crack and then 'V' it out, fill, smooth, and let dry. I let it go for a few days as I was busy with holiday crap.

Then it was bonding day!! My friend Bill the 'Vette guy came over to help. Take some Alcohol and rub down all the bonding surfaces to get them clean. then take 3 acid brushes and tape them together to make them bigger. Squeeze out all your panel glue into a flat bottomed cup and mix thoroughly. Spread it liberally over the metal deck lid (note to self: our scribe marks from before are now covered... oh well) slap your FG wing on there and align to your hearts content.

Make sure that when you press down on the edge that a little (or a lot) of the bonding agent squeezes out of the joint. This is how you ensure a complete bond. Once you are sure you will have bonding agent on the entire perimeter you clamp it down. As you clamp it down lots of bonding agent will squeeze out. You can take some of the excess agent and push it into the gaps. When it drys there will be a slight indentation in the middle of the agent like a trough if it covers a gap. So squegee it in with your finger all over the perimeter to ensure you have not missed anything.

Sorry, no pics, too busy and messy. Wear 2 layers of gloves so you can shed the top layer easily and get clean ones on fast. After you have clamped and squeezed all the perimeter take some clean rags and some Laquer Thinner (this stuff is nasty nasty!) and wipe all the excess bonding agent off. Especially on the under side of the metal lid where this stuff seemed to collect. Grinding it later is a PITA! Should look like this:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1229220189.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1229220230.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1229220257.jpg

Note that the goop is almost totally cleaned off the exposed metal areas and that the only bit that is visible is where the actual bonded joints are. It is a balance. If you wipe too much off, get some more out of the cup and start over on that section. Wear 2 layers of gloves as the thinner is not good for you. Also, DO NOT STORE THE RAGS IN YOUR GARAGE OR OTHER STRUCTURE! Word is they can spontaneously combust... I left mine in a plastic bag outside until trash day.

So there ya have it!! That is where I'm at until Christmas week when I have days off galore :) That is where I will use the other two cans: Feather-rite and Metal Glaze. I'll be spending a ton of time thinning down the edges so they go right to the metal and look natural.

I have come to the conclusion that $800 is perhaps cheap to do this job. Though, having learnt several skills along this journey I could do it again a lot faster.

Still a ways to go with feathering all the edges and seams, but it fits nicely and let me tell ya!! It is SOLID AS A ROCK! Compared to an all FG version this new laminated structure is very tight. The FG one would flex quite a bit if I were to put weight on it. This one doesn't move.

I'll post more when I do the cosmetic work.

Best regards,

Michael

SCWDP911 12-13-2008 08:05 PM

nice work! looks like you are headed in a good direction. you mentioned $800. Is that what everything has cost you so far?

RoninLB 12-13-2008 09:34 PM

Only for my act.

I wouldn't use the USC feather-rite.

It's polyester resin. I've found that it's brittle. It'll probably split at the metal seam eventually?

I'd use epoxy resin and glass filler for the top and maybe some black coloring added to resin only to coat the under side.


nice project

euro911sc 12-14-2008 01:41 PM

$800 is what I could have paid for this to be done for me. This included the metal decklid, but I supplied the FG lid.

Oh yeah, that feather-rite is for straightening the FG after I've got it 99% of the way there. I'll be using epoxy/filler at the metal/FG area as I do not want any cracking and flaking.

what I am not sure of is how it will hold up with the thermal expansion between FG and metal being different. I guess we'll see :)

-Michael


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