Creating a retro porsche- different route
 

Just a thought but,
Jack Olsen and many others have taken the route to creating beautiful and powerful retro porsche 911's from older body style cars.
How easy, if possible, would it be to take a stock 964 with all of it's suspension/performance/comfort modifications ,over the older cars, and take the front hood, rear tail bumpers and wheels of an older car to create the same/similar beast!.

Would this not be an easier /cheaper and higher performance route than the other?.

granted the car may be heavier, but it would be rust free, good a/c, better suspension and electrics, ABS, etc. and the car could still be stripped out to be slightly lighter.
Any comments?....
rgds Ben

This was done and shown in Excellence a few years ago. The car was silver with blue Fuchs and was made to look (sort of) like a '73 RS.

Not sure about the 964+. But for the Carrera it is easy.

The weight difference is pretty easy to account for - bumpers, power windows, larger wheels and tires, ac, etc.

In fact most of the early car updates end up putting some of that weight back in - wheels and tires, brake upgrades, later transmission...

It is easier and cheaper to pull those items out of the later car than it is to drop the new engine in the old car. And the results would weigh about the same. And be galvanized.

The 964 is the one which interests me as it has more upgrades than the 3.2.
It has already has the 3.6 engine, ABS, airbags, power steering, hydr. clutch, coilover spring suspension? and of course good A/C!.
Makes sense to me!
Any drawbacks? estimates to retro-fy?
thanks, Ben

It's not that uncommon a thing to do. Jens Wendorff did it on this board (I think from a Carrera) and it looks great. You get galvanized steel, brake, suspension and power upgrades, and you even get to avoid having to repair or replace the cardboard map pockets.

On the other hand, the bodywork and paint isn't cheap, and you get a slightly heavier (but safer) car. You just have to decide what point you're going to want to end up at, and if there's a single model that's closest to it. In my case, my brakes (930), suspension (21mm/30mm torsion bars, 22mm swaybars, 74 aluminum trailing arms), engine (964) and transaxle (early 911) simply couldn't be found on a single newer car. I would still have had to replace it all to get the version of 911 that I wanted.

But I've seen it done, and it looks great to loose the clunky bumpers and get something closer to the RS look. I haven't seen it done to a 964, but I don't see what would be so difficult about it.

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Jack Olsen
My Rennlist page • My Pelican Gallery page • My Porsche Owners Gallery page

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 09-05-2001).]

I don't get it - the best part of doing a retro project would be LOSING the ABS, airbags, & power steering systems. It's more interesting to learn braking limits, safer to use belts properly, and great to FEEL steering response! The changed power-to-weight ratio would be the big, fun plus. I'm guessing you might also need to consider suspension work to compensate for the change in balance and weight - for safety & ride quality (?).

Sounds like what you want is the Styling of the early car. Not the lightweight car / big motor performance.

I think you can drop the early hood and bumper on fairly easily, and just use the RS style straps to hold it down.

"the best part of doing a retro project would be LOSING the ABS, airbags, & power steering systems."

AMEN!!! Just more junk to break or get in the way of a pure driving experience.

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Adrian Pillow
1979 911 SC
1966 VW Microbus
PCA - Peachstate Region

Also, if your in CA, with a pre-73 chassis there is NO SMOG-CHECK!!!

If you get a 964, you will still have to go to the smog police every two years.

Have FUN!

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Nick Hromyak
'85 Carrera 7 & 9 Fuchs
Havin' Fun in Sacramento

The article in Excellence actually compared the modified car (I believe it was a 964) to an original Carrera RS. The main comments were the lack of feel and how much heavier the later car felt. It also looked a little funny due to a strange wheel offset to make the Fuchs (look-a-likes) fit. I can find which issue it was if you want to know.

James Adams

I would be very interested in the article!.
I agree that the older cars have a more 'in touch' feel. Part of the reason for me buying an older 911 was to 'tame the beast!'.
But the temptation of more power linked with a better transmission and suspension and a more modern system which was designed by Porsche as a complete package is tempting.
I could easily say that I could do without the ABS and the airbags before a life threatening accident!.
It seems that everyone is unified in a desire for the retro styling but want more power!.
Add drivability and safety to this and I beleive you might have a successful package!.
Many of us have probabley wondered 'what if Stuttgart marketed a retro Porsche'. I would think that they would put a modern guts into it much the same as VW did with the new Beetle!.
As I understand it the 964 suspension is superior to the old torsion bars?
Another bonus!.
The Fuchs offset may be a problem, but I thing there are enough other wheels out there to chose from to fit the bill.
rgds Ben

I have wondered how much fun it would be to make a 74RSR replica out of a 930.

Hey, at least you get power to match the looks http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/smile.gif

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Cameron Baudinet
1975 911S (in bits)
1969 911T

Ben, if you send me your e-mail I will scan and send you the article when I find it.
adams8@netzero.net
James Adams

Thanks James, have sent my email address and look forward to reading the article,
rgds Ben

Jadams, I'd love to get a copy of the article, too.

jackolsen@mediaone.net

Just in case you are still having memory block. Its Excellence #88, October 1999 issue and starts on page 79.

Go for it if you want!

I can follow your expectations pretty well. Although my intention was only to get a rust free chassis and some more daily drivability (e.g. in comparison to a '72 "S"), I would hate nowadays to miss the better seats, power windows, blabla.

But I think its only interesting (moneywhise) if you have access to all the needed parts from an older car. Otherwhise it will get damned expensive.

Jens
'76 2.7 with '73 body conversion

http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate...che_01_new.jpg

BTW: the 2.7 is still leaking a little, but pulls REALLY like a rubber band! http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/...s/boldblue.gif

The excellence article is interesting but unfortunatly tells more of the RSR than the replica!. http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/frown.gif
It would have been nice maybe to have a breakdown of costs and an idea of logistcally how difficult and expensive certain aspect were.
Trying to make the car identical will obviously cost an arm and a leg. The flared fenders and custom fuchs are something I could live without.
The hood, fenders and valances of the RS are the visual delights and the items that would interest me personally.
I would be looking at a more of a hybrid type car (like J.Olsen's with the C2 tail) and maybe Fiske or BBS LM wheels!.
Maybe someone good with graphics could work on this?. I will have a go this weekend.
Are the retro fenders and hoods available in steel or only in fibreglass?.
Hang, on a minute, I thought I was getting out of owning a Porsche? http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/rolleyes.gif
The bug bites hard!!!




[This message has been edited by 86ragtop (edited 09-06-2001).]

CamB,

I don't think you would get a 74 RSR replica if your starting point was a 930. You would get a 934 RSR!

This beast was featured in the latest (Sept 2001) 911 & Porsche World. A turn-key race with 485 bhp, and the styling of 3.0 RSR. In fact it seems it was a RSR before the addition of a turbocharger from the CanAm 917/30's!

Looks like fun to me!

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Marcus

'73 S Targa

Just a comment about ABS annd the 48 electric motors in a 964 ... that doesn't make for a more reliable vehicle or daily driver!!!

It just means quite a few MORE KILOBUCKS$$$$ in repairs of electric CONTRIVANCES over say, a ten-year ownership period!!!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa
1992 Dodge Dakota 5.2 4X4 parts hauler

Oh thanks Warren! trust you to burst my bubble! http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/smile.gif
It seemed a good idea for all of a couple of days or so. Enough for me to have happy dreams for one night!.
Well, if the 964 fans are half as reliable as the fans in a 3.2 Carrera you can forget it!.
I have had 3 fans break down in 2 years. Fresh air, A/C evaporateor and heater!.
So much for German electrics.
Never had any problems with Lucas fans!
http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/ar15.gif Ahhhhhgh!!!

I know what you mean, but I would (dreams are free) choose the 74RSR bumper and IROC spoiler (would the intercooler fit - probably not!), rather than the 934 bumpers. Now you have me thinking though... So it would look like a 74RSR but be more mechanically similar (I wish!) to a 934. On reflection, I have no idea of EXACTLY what the 934 looks like - is it the same?

We don't have the September issue yet :-( All the magazines (ie 911 & Porsche World and Excellence) generally get seafreighted so we are a month or two behind...

Cam

I am in the process of retro'ing a '88 Carrera into a 73RS look with a 3.6 motor. Body work in fairly easy(but $$$) and the hard part is the 3.6 motronic conversion. DO NOT EVEN START this project until you can speak to Steve timmons( www.instant-g.com). The is the ONLY person that seriously knows how to do this transformation correctly....ASK, Jack Olsen if this is correct ??? GOOD LUCK....

CamB,

I will post some pictures on Monday when I get back to my desk

Marcus

This is partly why I was looking at the 964 route.
Mainly because it already has the engine set up!.
The suspension is coil over springs but this was intended as an RS look project not to be identical as that would really take $$$$$.
The suspension and brakes already in the 964 are an improvement as I understand it!.
As Warren pointed out- the more complex electrics/electronics might be a achilles heal later in life but then again I have recently heard that the engine wireing harness on 993's is suspect to degredation! So Nothing is perfect!.
As a 964 can also be stripped down weight- wise, I think a 964 - with depreciating values might be a better contender than a post 86 Carrera which I would have thought would be of higher purchase price almost?
I am still interested in these lookalikes as they seem very popular. http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/smile.gif

Yeah I know it's a die cast but it's still a 934. If anybody is interested in the model they are like $120.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate...ads/587034.jpg


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rj cilurso
87 911 targa

ABS would be an improvement on an earlier car, air bags and power steering is for weenies with cell phones plugged into their ears....A/C....would be nice but only if I lived in Texas or Hell....

Just my two cents...

Great idea Ben, don't give up on it yet!

My $.02: my '92 C2 is more reliable than my wife's Honda, and the most trouble-free car I have ever owned. The engineering may be more sophisticated than earlier cars but IMHO and IME this does not equal more trouble-prone.

As I recall, you spend some time in FL, and as a former resident of South Florida, I can assure the rest of you that actual working a/c would be a good idea!

Go to one DE with an ABS car and a good instructor, and any doubts about the value of that system will vanish. And re power steering, on the 964 it is NOT overboosted and retains excellent feel--definitely drive one to see.

Lastly, because I believe even the most proficient Porsche pilot can not always escape a drunk or idiot driving into his path, I like the idea of airbags. If you don't, however, instructions for disabling or removing them are easy to find on the 'net.

Anyway, I think you have an intriguing idea here, and hope you pursue it. Keep us posted!

For those of you insterested in the article that James Adams copied, I've put a slightly-lower-resolution version on my site:

Page 1
Page 2
Page 3
Page 4
Page 5
Page 6

Thanks again, James.

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Jack Olsen
My Rennlist page • My Pelican Gallery page • My Porsche Owners Gallery page

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 09-07-2001).]

Thank you for posting that article on your site Jack. That is definately going to be on my must buy list when I hit the lottery jackpot!! Some carbon fibre doors and a full house 3.8 multiple throttle engine would make it absolutely perfect.

Heres a pic of my 934 and GT2;
http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate...to934small.jpg

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<font color="#730000">Bill Verburg</font>
My Home Page http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/icons/icon15.gif My Pelican Gallery page http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/icons/icon15.gif My Porsche Owners Gallery Page

Sorry, have not read all the posts regarding the retro conversion, but having done 74 wide body to 73 RS, a 78 turbo to 74 RSR look, and more than a few RS conversions on early cars, you need to know that the 964 conversion will cost you in the neighborhood of $10k including a paint job, but no wheels- yep some custom offset machined 3 piece fuchs will have to be made up from 6 x 16 cores. More than likely the exhaust will be a pain , unless you backdate it to either a set of custom headers or suffer some horsepower loss by installing SSI's (yes, the 964 exhaust ports are considerably larger than the SSI units) Since the car will no longer have heavy bumpers and other paraphenalia, the performance will be pretty nice, but not like the no-smog-required 73 and earlier cars with 3.6 implant. (See Jack Olsen's car on that issue) But you will enjoy good a/c, ventilation, power steering, etc. Up grades to the suspension can be made of course and the result will be a car that outhandles any similarly equipped early car. Your choice of how you want your Porsche- this stuff is always fun! Good luck

Hi Dave, sounds like you have done a bit of this stuff already!.
Can you give a rough break down of that $10,000 or was it a ball park figure?.
Have you heard of any good shops on the east Coast who specialise in this kind of thing?.
I imagine to get the 'RS -look' you would need a long hood, possibley new front wings and a new tail lid to fit the duck tail on.
As for the wheels, I would probableyb skip the custom Fuchs as they would probabley be more than BBS LM's.
thanks in advance of any help
rgds Ben

Well, a gold star to me - I did remember how the 934 looked - much "angrier" than an IROC 74RSR. THanks for posting the pics.

I do prefer the RSR. Pity I am dreaming (real or replica).

Cam