'74 Targa - Problems

[peter_soj]

We ended up buying the car that we were looking at. Got some questions about it though.

1. Tried to start it up and didn't even turn over, was just some buzzing noise coming from somewhere around the rear of the car. Had a look and dad realized that there was no starter motor , the engine turned over when in gear and pushed, so we decided to try our luck at push starting it. Gave it a go running it down the street and it turned over a couple of times, exhaust puffing for a few seconds then died. Something started leaking, then we tried once more going back towards our driveway and it didn't start at all. Bigggg leak this time. Pushed it back into the garage and there was a lot of what seemed to be an oil/fuel combination leaking from the Left heat exchanger cover. (Not sure if that's what it is/what its called) So any help with that would be great, ideas or theories.
2. Was the redline always at 5600 on this car?

Also, what does "Druck" mean on the dashboard?

I've got some pictures here, any input would be great.













That's the picture of underneath.

[f3nr15]

Can't recall the standard redline off the top of my head, but your tach looks to be from an earlier model 911, just by the alloy needle mount.

"Druck" refers to the oil pressure.

Actually, your TEMP/DRUCK gauge looks like one from a Sportomatic, judging by the extra warning lamp - it might have been swapped in from a Sporto, or perhaps your car was originally a Sporto?

Those more knowledgable will post about the impressive oil leak you have there, but I suspect you're looking at some major bottom end work.

Finally, I hope you didn't pay more than $12K for that old gal!

[peter_soj]

Originally Posted by f3nr15

Can't recall the standard redline off the top of my head, but your tach looks to be from an earlier model 911, just by the alloy needle mount.

"Druck" refers to the oil pressure.

Actually, your TEMP/DRUCK gauge looks like one from a Sportomatic, judging by the extra warning lamp - it might have been swapped in from a Sporto, or perhaps your car was originally a Sporto?

Those more knowledgable will post about the impressive oil leak you have there, but I suspect you're looking at some major bottom end work.

Finally, I hope you didn't pay more than $12K for that old gal!

Yeah I thought there was something fishy bout the speedo, I had seen other 74's with redline at 6200/6600 I cant remember heh.

And I should really check up on the dash, see if the entire thing isn't from an earlier model sporto.

Yeah damn, hopefully I can keep the cost of the engine rebuild down, my dad and I plan on doing it ourselves over the next 12-18 months.

And No sir! We paid $6K cash for this baby! My dads a bargain hunter. Aus delivered too, I took some photos of other stuff except was too close, need to use my brothers camera because its better. Ill get them up tomorrow.

Thanks for help! Anyone else?

[ruf-porsche]

With fuel and oil leaking I would think that you have a cylinder problem. The buzzing from the rear wheel well is the fuel pump.

I take it since you didn't realize the starter was missing until after you brought the car, you didn't have a PPI perform on the car. Did you get any records?

If it was my car (and I'm glad its not) I would install a starter and perform a compression check on all the cylinders.

I sold my 74 coupe for $6,000 and that was a running car. In the states a non running PORSCHE is only worth a couple of thousand.

[peter_soj]

Originally Posted by ruf-porsche

With fuel and oil leaking I would think that you have a cylinder problem. The buzzing from the rear wheel well is the fuel pump.

I take it since you didn't realize the starter was missing until after you brought the car, you didn't have a PPI perform on the car. Did you get any records?

If it was my car (and I'm glad its not) I would install a starter and perform a compression check on all the cylinders.

I sold my 74 coupe for $6,000 and that was a running car. In the states a non running PORSCHE is only worth a couple of thousand.

Ah thanks, I knew the buzzing was normal was just curious though :P
Nar PPI wasn't performed, car was too cheap to pass up, it's very rare to get a 911 for $6k in Australia and the guy was planning on advertising it.

I think we got a whole lot of records with it, there were some Porsche maintenance books in the glovebox too. And a solar charger in the door thingy, SCORE. How much do you reckon a starter would cost? And we're mainly just trying to sort out where the leak is coming from.

Not going to be able to get much work done straight away on the car, and I need to make some money so I can afford an engine rebuild and whatnot, but still would like to know the problems and maybe get it started

Cosmetics and stuff my dad will probably pay for but, even though he can afford it, I don't thin he wants to have to pay for the engine rebuild and stuff.

Thanks for the help

[don gilbert]

hey peter, i bought a very simular car a few years ago, a very neglected 75 targa, with the idea of just getting it running and slapping some paint on it. after getting it home and evaluating it, it needed everthing, i mean everthing. well 5 years later and about 27g lighter, i got the car i wanted, and that is doing all the work myself, well most, (mach work, paint, alighment, farmed out) before spending a ton on that 2.7, i think you would be better in the long run to look for a 3.0, even if it needs work, i see motors alone going for 5-6g, and compete wrecked cars for 1500-3500/ i found my 3.0 in a wrecked 82 sc with 81000 on it, bought the whole car for 3g. look for a wrecked car and buy the whole thing, you will get a ton of improved parts you can swap on the 74. dont mean to scare you, its a very slippery slope, but passion will take over, and money will not matter. will i ever get the money ive put in my car? no, but i bult the car ive always wanted ever since i was a little kid, 40+yrs ago, and will keep it forever, im sure. now it i can just find my next one. have fun, don

[Walter_Middie]

Peter_soj

It looks OK - a lot of work certainly, but OK. One of the things I look for first is whether the previous owner (that obviously let the car sit) has taken things apart and started to "fix" them. Yours looks largely intact - that will make fixing things correctly much easier. I also don't see a lot rust, which is good - but it's hard to see from the pictures.

I see a headlight upgrade with relays - that's good. It also looks like someone removed a stereo amplifier that used to be in the trunk.

The dash may be stock - I'm not that familiar with European gauges. Mine has the same number of warning lights on the oil press/temp gauge. Starting from the top, generator/alternator light, oil pressure light, and brake warning light (or parking brake light). My tach redlines at 6500 RPM - I don't know if there was a difference in redline for the 911"S" or not.

As for the giant leak in the back - I'm sure you are aware that the 2.7L engines have a tendency to pull the head studs out of the magnesium block. I can see a scenario where the PO let a head stud or two go, and continued to drive it until the cylinder became loose from the block - that would cause a huge leak. If it were mine, I'd pull the upper and lower valve covers off, take a few pictures of what's inside, and post them here for the experts to look over. Once you start to rebuild the engine, you will become very familiar with the weak threads in the block, as there are several places where studs tend to pull out over time.

You can look at Pelican Parts to see how much a new starter is. Better get acquainted with our hosts web site - especially the new parts section.

[peter_soj]

Originally Posted by don gilbert

hey peter, i bought a very simular car a few years ago, a very neglected 75 targa, with the idea of just getting it running and slapping some paint on it. after getting it home and evaluating it, it needed everthing, i mean everthing. well 5 years later and about 27g lighter, i got the car i wanted, and that is doing all the work myself, well most, (mach work, paint, alighment, farmed out) before spending a ton on that 2.7, i think you would be better in the long run to look for a 3.0, even if it needs work, i see motors alone going for 5-6g, and compete wrecked cars for 1500-3500/ i found my 3.0 in a wrecked 82 sc with 81000 on it, bought the whole car for 3g. look for a wrecked car and buy the whole thing, you will get a ton of improved parts you can swap on the 74. dont mean to scare you, its a very slippery slope, but passion will take over, and money will not matter. will i ever get the money ive put in my car? no, but i bult the car ive always wanted ever since i was a little kid, 40+yrs ago, and will keep it forever, im sure. now it i can just find my next one. have fun, don

Damm, thanks for the input
I think I'm gonna have to put off doing work on the engine and running gear for now, and just look at the cosmetics. I'll have to wait till later on in the year once I've made some money to be able to fix up the engine. And I wish cars were that cheap here in Aus, a wrecked 911 would still probably cost more than what this did, it was a bargain!

Originally Posted by Walter_Middie

Peter_soj

It looks OK - a lot of work certainly, but OK. One of the things I look for first is whether the previous owner (that obviously let the car sit) has taken things apart and started to "fix" them. Yours looks largely intact - that will make fixing things correctly much easier. I also don't see a lot rust, which is good - but it's hard to see from the pictures.

I see a headlight upgrade with relays - that's good. It also looks like someone removed a stereo amplifier that used to be in the trunk.

The dash may be stock - I'm not that familiar with European gauges. Mine has the same number of warning lights on the oil press/temp gauge. Starting from the top, generator/alternator light, oil pressure light, and brake warning light (or parking brake light). My tach redlines at 6500 RPM - I don't know if there was a difference in redline for the 911"S" or not.

As for the giant leak in the back - I'm sure you are aware that the 2.7L engines have a tendency to pull the head studs out of the magnesium block. I can see a scenario where the PO let a head stud or two go, and continued to drive it until the cylinder became loose from the block - that would cause a huge leak. If it were mine, I'd pull the upper and lower valve covers off, take a few pictures of what's inside, and post them here for the experts to look over. Once you start to rebuild the engine, you will become very familiar with the weak threads in the block, as there are several places where studs tend to pull out over time.

You can look at Pelican Parts to see how much a new starter is. Better get acquainted with our hosts web site - especially the new parts section.

There's a couple of small areas of rust, under the right headlight there's about a coin sized hole from rust, but its all fixable, nothing major. And i'm liking the sound of that headlight upgrade, what does that mean exactly though, with relays?
Yeah, previous owner put a stero system in, we removed the amp so thats why the wires are hanging around.
Yeah the dash confused me too, I thought the 74 had a higher redline on the tacho, do you know of any places I can get a picture of the original?

I'll hopefully get around to following your advice and taking off the valve covers off and putting up some pics, but for the moment my dads got too many projects so I don't think it will happen during this week, maybe on the weekend.

Thanks for all the help.

[Walter_Middie]

what does that mean exactly though, with relays?

Aftermarket headlights can put more strain on the stock wiring, and causing fires in some cases. Adding the headlights and relays takes the strain off the stock wiring harness, and puts it on the new wires, that hopefully are up to the task of carrying the load. The relays are just below and forward of the fuse block in the trunk, with the red wires coming out of them.

[Walter_Middie]

well 5 years later and about 27g lighter, i got the car i wanted

It is possible to build this car up to be a very nice driver without spending a fortune - I know, because that's exactly what I did. I don't think anyone will tell you it will be cheap, but you have to avoid the temptation to go overboard. Even with my budget rebuild, I still spent extra money where I really didn't have to. That was because I didn't fully understand what I was doing at the time. Ask questions here, there are a lot of very helpful folks on here.

[don gilbert]

peter, i see you are a mere 16 years old, and if you catch the bug like the rest of us here, this will not be your last pcar, so , as walter said, you dont have to spend a fortune, and i woudnt on that car. use it as a learning experiance for the one you will go all out on.

[peter_soj]

Walter

Thanks for explaining the relays, I understand it now.

And that's what I was hoping, being able to build the car to be reliable, not luxurious or anything, but a bit of fun to drive. My dad wants to spend as little as possible on the engine, and basically, i'll need something that will last me at least 4 years (Until I get off my probationary license) because then I would probably upgrade the engine for performance.
But yeah i'm gonna have to ask for a lot of help on here and try and keep the rebuild price down

Thanks again.

[ossiblue]

Your tach could possibly be from a 68-69 912, that would account for the low red line.

I agree with most others who have responded--think about a replacement engine especially if it's not important that you keep the car original.

[peter_soj]

I'm really curious as to see what model this tach came from. It could possibly be that Aus delivered cars had it stock, but that's just a total guess on my part.

If I were to get this motor running miraculously somehow, without spending over a couple of hundred on it, how many kms (miles) do you think I could get out of it? It's got 120 on it at the moment, not sure if its had a previous rebuild or not. But I noticed it does have the 11 blade fan- were these stock on the 74?

[ossiblue]

Just did a little checking on my 69 912, and the red line is 6K and the silver "button" in the center of the needle has a raised center--almost a shallow cone. I did see a pic of a 914 tach and it had the red line where yours is but the needle was different, though I don't know what year it was. Whatever you find out, the tach is not a match to your year car, and I doubt it was exclusive to Australia.

The eleven blade fan was stock on the 74, I believe. It was the 75 cars that were first given the 5 blade fan to increase engine temps to meet emission requirements in the U.S.

My suggestion on the engine, based only on my experience with a very well running 75S and considerable reading on this board from owners with old, tired engines--get it running well enough to do a thorough diagnosis including compression, leak down, oil pressure. Then, be prepared to pull the engine to address any problems you uncover and go from there. As others have pointed out, it does look like you may have loose studs, and that alone will mean an engine drop.

In short, don't plan on seeing how far you can go once it is up and running as you could wind up doing much more costly damage by the time it "buys the farm."

[don gilbert]

peter, a 74 tach redlines at 6200 rpm. comp. test would be first thing of order, to see what you are dealing with. if this car has been sitting for a couple of years you are going to have some cis issues, almost certainly wur, f/acc. Hopefully the fuel dist. is not gunked up. a good idea now is to pull the fuel tank and give it a good cleaning, put in a new f/filter, blow thru all the fuel lines. trying to start a cis car that has been sitting for a few year can can cause you more headaches. the fuel being clean is very very critical for cis operation. one speck of rust can get in you fuel dist, or wur reg. and create problems. i have all the cis books, and was a factory trained cert. bmw tech for 16 years, and my favorite one is ben watsons "how to tune and modify cis" you are going to need this book, also a bently manual.

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by don gilbert

peter, a 74 tach redlines at 6200 rpm. comp. test would be first thing of order, to see what you are dealing with. if this car has been sitting for a couple of years you are going to have some cis issues, almost certainly wur, f/acc. Hopefully the fuel dist. is not gunked up. a good idea now is to pull the fuel tank and give it a good cleaning, put in a new f/filter, blow thru all the fuel lines. trying to start a cis car that has been sitting for a few year can can cause you more headaches. the fuel being clean is very very critical for cis operation. one speck of rust can get in you fuel dist, or wur reg. and create problems. i have all the cis books, and was a factory trained cert. bmw tech for 16 years, and my favorite one is ben watsons "how to tune and modify cis" you are going to need this book, also a bently manual.

+1 Don is absolutely correct in what you are facing just getting the car to run. This is where you will have to make your first decisions on how much money/time you want to put into an engine that may be a grenade (or not!). You have a lot of work ahead of you, but unless there are records of engine upgrades (time certs, chain tensioners) you're most likely facing at least a partial rebuild.

Spend a lot of time on this board, and research any questions you have by using the search button at the top right of the web page--it's likely anything you wonder about, someone else has too and has asked about it here. Don't be afraid to ask--we've all been there.

BTW, after further research, it looks like your tach is from an early (1970) 914.

[peter_soj]

Originally Posted by ossiblue

Just did a little checking on my 69 912, and the red line is 6K and the silver "button" in the center of the needle has a raised center--almost a shallow cone. I did see a pic of a 914 tach and it had the red line where yours is but the needle was different, though I don't know what year it was. Whatever you find out, the tach is not a match to your year car, and I doubt it was exclusive to Australia.

The eleven blade fan was stock on the 74, I believe. It was the 75 cars that were first given the 5 blade fan to increase engine temps to meet emission requirements in the U.S.

My suggestion on the engine, based only on my experience with a very well running 75S and considerable reading on this board from owners with old, tired engines--get it running well enough to do a thorough diagnosis including compression, leak down, oil pressure. Then, be prepared to pull the engine to address any problems you uncover and go from there. As others have pointed out, it does look like you may have loose studs, and that alone will mean an engine drop.

In short, don't plan on seeing how far you can go once it is up and running as you could wind up doing much more costly damage by the time it "buys the farm."

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll get around to walters suggestion in the next couple of weeks probably, pulling off the valve covers and checking it out. As for dropping the engine, which I will probably have to do considering all the advice ive gotten here () that will have to wait at least a few months since i'd need my dads help. He's got alot of projects at the moment, and most of the engine things I can't do without him, I can do the cosmetics in the meantime though.

Don, thanks for the redline update. The car has been sitting for 1-2 years, so hopefully that isn't enough time for too much trouble to happen in the fuel tank and fuel lines etc.

Thanks for all the help, i'm off to bed now, its closing in on 4am. The cars taking up heaps of my time and i've barely started on it! Hopefully i'll wake up in the morning to some more helpful posts, goodnight.

[don gilbert]

even though it only been sitting for a while, i would clean the tank and lines. there is rust in a 74 tank, i assure you. the big chunks will lock up your fuel pump first, after you fix that, the smaller particles will build up in critical areas. do not buy an auto zone filter, get a mahle, it filters out at a lot lower micron level than all aftermarkets

[Bobboloo]

Hi Peter,

Congrats on the find! The Tach may be the original for the car. In 74' Porsche also made a 2.7 "normal or T" motor that was better suited for city driving than the "S". It had smaller "T" 32mm ports. This meant the car also had a lower redline probably 5700.

Porsche did go to the different style needle hub in 74' that was black instead of silver but your car still could have come with the silver needle hub. It's not uncommon that in change over years that you see things like this. Late 71' cars had 72' parts on them and early 73' cars had 72' parts on them from the factory.

The 2.7 normal is an interesting motor. Not many were made because the lower horsepower ratings probably made it a hard sell. In actual use however these cars were quite fast on the street because they have a lot of low end torque. They were the faster than the Carrera RS off the line.

As for your oil leaks. you need to determine where the leak is coming from. Don't assume anything. Just because 1000's of these 2.7 motors have pulled their studs doesn't mean this motor has. Your leak could be as simple as an overfill of oil and a loose breather hose dumping oil on top the motor where it would drain down over the whole motor.

Before rebuilding the motor you need to determine whether it needs it or not. This is determined by compression/leakdown numbers and oil consumption (miles per quart of oil).

You might start by doing a partial engine drop so you can take a look at the top of the motor. To determine the source of the oil leak. If you need info on a partial drop let me know and I'll walk you threw it. Take the opportunity to also check the head studs for tension. If they are loose and won't tighten then the studs are pulled.