hypothetically speaking.

[joe w]

I have been considering a 993 or 996 but it would seem that the long term dependability of these cars is limited (125m+). Since Porsche, like all car makers, continues to add more electronic components these cars are becoming more and more difficult for an amateur to maintain. Now, we see 30 even 45 year old Porsche on the street. It seems to me we won't be seeing many 993 or 996 on the street in 30+ years. The cars will simply be complicated and the parts to expensive to be worth keeping on the road. Any thoughts?

[Jim T]

In 1980, people were saying the EXACT same thing, as the "incomprehensible" CIS and other injection systems starting taking over from carbs. The age of the DIY mechanic was supposedly over.

A car like the 996 is probably hard for a home mechanic to work on right now, because the diagnostic tools are expensive, there are no good DIY manuals or resources, and there is no collective body of DIY knowledge out there.

But, in my opinion, it will happen. The market will insure that. If there is a market for cheap diagnotic tools to fix old 996s, someone will take the money and make the tool. Same for replacement ECUs, which control everything these days.

I think car really haven't changed much at all over the decades. They are basically the same, chassis, suspension, steering, brakes, internal combustion engine. A lot of electronics have been tacked on, but electronics aren't bad, if you have the right diagnostic tools. In a lot of ways, its easier than the mechanical side, its usually just a matter of checking the sensors, the wiring and the ECU. The right diagnostic tools make it even easier, just read the fault code and swap out the bad part or sensor.

I think 20-30 years from now a very high percentage of 993s and 996s will still be on the road, and a lot of them will be owned and maintained by DIYers.

[Rot 911]

Jim, good point. You are already starting to see inexpensive computer diagnostic code readers for popular GM and Ford vehicles.

Kurt V
72 911E

[sander]

Who knows what will happen in the future? It may be that when you need to "tune" your 2010 Porsche 911, you just dial up the car's computer on your Palm Pilot XII and change a few settings.

[epbrown]

It may be true that DIYers will overcome some of the later model cars in the future, but we should bear in mind that the chief disadvantage of the newer cars is that they're *made* to discourage home mechanics. More and more, Porsche seems to be working against the idea of home maintenance, and that alone will make things harder on folks with the newer cars. The pre-90 cars weren't made with eveything covered and hidden, the way the latest models seem to be (from reading magazine articles, at least).

------------------
"Everybody wants a normal life and a cool car;
most people settle for the car." Chris Titus
1983 911 SC Targa
1966 Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow

[Bill Wagner]

From what I've seen the 996 and Boxter have been made to be next to impossible (or as difficult as possible) to work on by a home mechanic. You need to do nearly EVERYTHING from underneath the car. At the very least, for most of us, this either means buying and installing a lift in our houses or turning the car over to a mechanic for servicing.

Additionally, I believe that Porsche has implemented a "swap out only" policy for some of their transmissions (and probably other components as well) starting with some of the 993 models. This means that if something goes wrong, possibly as simple as a seal leaking oil in the transmission, swap the whole thing, don't repair it.

The Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 and Dodge Stealth RT/TT (both the same twin turbo charged cars, and both equipped with a Getrag AWD transaxle...I used to own a Stealth RT/TT) were subjected to this policy. If you were unfortunate enough to need a repair AND you weren't under warranty, the swap out could run as much as $8000 (I know...mine was replaced under warranty for a leaking seal and the total bill pushed the 8K figure...but it was under an extended warranty so I didn't have to pay for it). Other owners weren't so lucky.

What does this mean to "newer" Porsche owners? Expect the values of your cars to PLUMMET, and I mean PLUMMET. Stealth RT/TTs, 3000GT VR-4s, Mazda TT RX-7s, and Nissan 300 ZX TT models were all pretty much comparably priced in the early '90s. Only the Mitsubishi VR-4 and Stealth RT/TT had a "swap out only" policy in place for their cars. The current selling price for used Stealth RT/TTs and 3000 GT VR-4s, is about 1/2 of what it is for the other cars. You can expect to pay about $7K-10K for a Stealth RT/TT or a VR-4, whereas any of the other cars will cost $14K-20K (condition/mileage dependent). Dealerships and owners have been stung way to many times by this type of thinking, and they de-value the car accordingly. When I went to look at a '90 C2 at one dealership and showed him my immaculate Stealth with all records, his only response was "that has a Getrag in it, doesn't it? Has it been replaced? How many miles are on the transaxle?" They were absolutely unwilling to budge on their low offer for my trade, but I found their thinking to be the rule, not the exception.

There is little point in paying $8000 for a car that's worth $7000. I suppose you could literally call it a "throw away" car. It's too bad Porsche has adopted this type of policy!

Just my opinion.

Bill Wagner

[Jim T]

The new Porsche transmissions may be "swap out" only right now, but that's only because its probably cheaper for Porsche right now to do it that way, and the cars are so new that no one outside company is rebuilding them. Wouldn't make economic sense at this time.

But, as the cars get older, companies will start rebuilding components like transmissions, ECUs, etc. because there will be good money in doing that, and there will be a market for it (the market doesn't currently exist, because the cars are new and under warranty).

911s never have been, and never will be, in my opinion, throw away cars. As they age, the market will see to it that whatever components need to be made to keep them running, will be made. Unlike more pedestrian sports cars (like discontinued Japanese sports cars), whole cottage industries spring up to keep 911s and 356's on the road. The analogy to those japanese sports cars is not really good, because while those cars do have smallish pockets of fans, I think history will generally treat those cars as "throwaways," at least much more so than the 911. (in fact, history has already treated those cars as throwaways, in that they've largely been abandoned by their mfrs).

As far as working from underneath the car, I don't think that stops a home mechanic. That's what big jacks and tall jackstands are made for! Yeah, its kind of a pain, but not insurmountable.

[joe w]

Jim---I hope you guys a right about the life span of the newer 911's. However, it seems the 928 and 944's are quickly becoming throw aways.

[Jim T]

944s and 928, whatever they may be, are not 911s.

Which may be why Porsche doesn't make them anymore.

The 911 is a completely different, unique animal.

[Kurt B]

What bill is saying rings very true, and it's pretty frightening. Even if people suggested the CIS was too complex over carbs, you could still get in there and work on the mechanics of the engine, the tranny etc. The added electronics are only bothersome additional hardware.

However, if you can't get at the engine at all, and a swap out is the only real answer for the home mechanics, Bill is absolutely right that the cars become throw-aways
because the only people who can afford them would be the original owners or people with the big $$, and they aren't going to spend big $$ on an old car.

That kind of thing discourages me. I LIKE working on my car. It's wonderful. When everything's working well, I just stare at the TV or play video games. If I knew straight off that there is no working on it, only $$ to be spent, then f-ck it!

And Note: I don't care what diagnostic goodies you can get for GM at Autozone, you'll never get one for Porsche. I've hunted high and low for a Porsche diagnostic tool and found absolutely nothing. Even if it does come cheap for them, it won't be cheap for us, or maybe not even available.


------------------
Kurt B
'84 Carrera Cab.
carrera_cabriolet@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by Kurt B (edited 05-31-2001).]

[Doug Zielke]

Patiently waiting for 993 and 996 owners to start "throwing away" their cars....

------------------
Doug
'81 SC Coupe (aka: "Blue Bomber")
Canada West Region PCA
members.home.net/zielke/911SC.htm

[Nickshu]

I agree that in time we will not feel so overwhelmed by newer "more electronic" cars.

If anything, electronics have actually made cars simpler, by allowing for fewer moving parts and combining the functions of multiple systems into one electronically controlled setup.

The downside of modern cars is this:
When they work...they work flawlessly.
But when something is broken (beyond the function of "limp home modes"), they are just dead. There is no opportunity to adjust the mixture, or idle speed, or timing...or rig some way to make it get you home.

We'll all see diagnostic computers on EBay for cheap in just a few years.

Nick.

------------------
_ _ __ _ _
Nick Shumaker
1982 911SC Coupe
nickshu@yahoo.com
PCA -- Rocky Mtn. Region

[Jim T]

Me too! I'll take my chances with a $12,000 996 ten years from now.

[Desert Man]

And a point of reference: the mechanic that I am using for the heavy duty stuff on my Carrera told me he had to invest $12K in diagnostic computer equipment when he replaced a blown Boxster 2.7 for a factory reman 996/3.4 engine. There was no other way to dial in computer OS in the Boxster for the 3.4

[paulhagedorn]

How did someone blow a Boxster engine already? Missed shift I would guess...but still, had to be a pretty big engine rev to blow it and someone not paying attention at all to catch it.

[Superman]

Very interesting thinking, I like this discussion. I can see both positions. I believe these cars will be marketable and parts will be available, and I suspect that simple diagnostic tools will be available also.

Unfortunately I also believe they are putting too many parts in cars these days for them to be very reliable in 30 years. And that's kind of what we;re finding with SCs. Some here have recently expressed concern about the many parts that have needed replacing on these aging cars.

Older cars will be seen on the road for many years to come. If and when the 996s become too expensive and complex to maintain stock, someone will get one, put headers and Webers on, and remove almost everything connected to a wire or hose. And we'll call him "Superman!"

------------------
'83 SC

[83 sc euro cab]

bump

[Nader]

Gentlemen, are we to assume that petroleum will still be available in 30 years? And at what prices?

[orbmedia]

No Porsche 911 series car is a throwaway. Further, everything is possible with DIY! I shall not be deterred!

[Greg S]

Put it this way - I can find all the info I need to fix my wife's 94 Jag, no problem. The specs are available for many different parts, sensors, all the things that were supposedly DIY-proof. The beauty of it is that I rarely have to fix the car, either. The info will continue to filter out to the enthusiast community in future, too, IMNSHO.
Greg