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dtw dtw is offline
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Steps of decision-making process. Perform on warm, restrictor-equipped car.

1. Prepare a liberally-mixed batch of degreaser and several clean shop towels
2. Pull the valve cover of your choice
3. Position yourself to observe the cam oiling bar without being directly over the bar
4. Don safety glasses
5. Have helper start car
6. Observe the fountains (might want to spend as little time as possible observing)
6.5 Scream frantically at helper to kill engine
7. Using products prepared in step 1: Clean up oil-covered surfaces including ceiling, decklid, engine bay, self, garage floor, neighboring vehicles
8. Make your own now-educated decision as to sufficiency of oil on camtrain.

I did, and I am a believer.
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtw View Post
Steps of decision-making process. Perform on warm, restrictor-equipped car.

1. Prepare a liberally-mixed batch of degreaser and several clean shop towels
2. Pull the valve cover of your choice
3. Position yourself to observe the cam oiling bar without being directly over the bar
4. Don safety glasses
5. Have helper start car
6. Observe the fountains (might want to spend as little time as possible observing)
6.5 Scream frantically at helper to kill engine
7. Using products prepared in step 1: Clean up oil-covered surfaces including ceiling, decklid, engine bay, self, garage floor, neighboring vehicles
8. Make your own now-educated decision as to sufficiency of oil on camtrain.

I did, and I am a believer.
I don't see any volumetric spreadsheet calculations and skin burn severity analyses in your procedure, nor did you provide before and after data. Souk is going to reprimand you.............

Kudos to you Dave for your investigation!
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Old 01-29-2009, 02:15 PM
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You guys can do whatever you want but first, please perform this thought experiment.

Since you have not changed the pump, it is still putting out the same flow (it is a positive displacement pump). The restrictors appear to raise the system oil pressure because the pressure transmitter is on the upstream side of the restrictor. If you move the transmitter to the downstream side of the restrictor, the flow distribution would b ethe same as whenthe transmitter is on the upstream side but you would see a much lower pressure on the gauge.

The reality is that the system pressure is still the same.

Would it still feel OK to you?
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Old 01-29-2009, 05:14 PM
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Steve: I completely agree with you on the merits of oil with good ZDDP content. Running with lesser oils is the primary cause of the wear folks are seeing. In the case of three cams that I have seen the pitting on, the rest of the cam lob showed expected wear or maybe a bit more than expected. This I would attribute to a poor selection of oil. Where the pitting existed on the lobes, the defect appeared as a void or pocket that is below the hardened surface of the lobe, hence my reason to suspect the casting. I would not expect the wear from a rotating part to pull material off the part (leaving the pit or void) unless the material was pulled up and out when the hardened surface chipped or flaked off. Hence my conclusion that the wearing down of the hardened surface through the use of oil w/o adequate ZDDP exposed the porosity of the casting. I wish I had saved one of the bad cams so I could have a metallurgist inspect it.

Kevin: The above is why I reprimanded you for being un-scientific You admit that you had not been using oil with adequate ZDDP, and your engine has an unknown past (if I recall correctly). This added to the fact that your valve guides had worn (which we see on engines w/o pitted cams) can't be blamed on the oil quantity alone.

Harry: I'm not sure what you mean with your post. I don't think anyone is suggesting relocating the pressure transducer on the downstream side of the restrictor. I don't think anyone wants that false sense of "it's all right since the pressure gauge behaves the same." security. I recall the discussion years ago when I pointed out the the pump is a PD pump. Its displacement can't change unless the higher differential causes additional slip. But even so, the displace wouldn't be reduced enough for us to focus on it. This doesn't mean that the same amount of oil is flowing through the 2.5 mm orifice. I don't think anyone is suggesting this, but rather that the reduction in flow through the smaller orifice is not significant enough to cause accelerated wear of the cams and valve guides or a reduction in cooling. Where does the oil go if the displace is essentially the same? Through the out outlets in the circuit. You know that an increase in differential pressure across an orifice/oulet will increase the flow until the fluid chokes (gas) or starts to cavitate (liquid). I don't think we're seeing cavitation, but I'll make a mental note to check the outlets (including the smaller restrictor) for signs of cavitation when I tear down my 3.0.

Last edited by MotoSook; 01-29-2009 at 06:05 PM..
Old 01-29-2009, 05:58 PM
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Without making a mess while putting data to the Groskemper and DTW example, I will provide emperical data when I get some time to play in the garage. I'll rig up a test using one of my spare cam boxes and the two sizes of restrictors. I'll put the cam box in a container to catch the oil and then pressure up a reservoir of oil at a range of pressure points. I'll them measure the oil that collects in my container for each pressure point and for both restrictor sizes.

I could just test the restrictor w/o the cam box, but that would skew the results as the spray bar generates back pressure between the orifice outlet and the spray bar outlet. This would cause a lower differential across the orifice and a higher flow than without the spray bar installed.

I welcome anyone to run this experiment and post the results.....I may not have time in the very near future to run this thanks to a house full of kids and a job I'd like to keep.
Old 01-29-2009, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Souk View Post
Harry: I'm not sure what you mean with your post. I don't think anyone is suggesting relocating the pressure transducer on the downstream side of the restrictor. I don't think anyone wants that false sense of "it's all right since the pressure gauge behaves the same." security. I recall the discussion years ago when I pointed out the the pump is a PD pump. Its displacement can't change unless the higher differential causes additional slip. But even so, the displace wouldn't be reduced enough for us to focus on it. This doesn't mean that the same amount of oil is flowing through the 2.5 mm orifice. I don't think anyone is suggesting this, but rather that the reduction in flow through the smaller orifice is not significant enough to cause accelerated wear of the cams and valve guides or a reduction in cooling. Where does the oil go if the displace is essentially the same? Through the out outlets in the circuit. You know that an increase in differential pressure across an orifice/oulet will increase the flow until the fluid chokes (gas) or starts to cavitate (liquid). I don't think we're seeing cavitation, but I'll make a mental note to check the outlets (including the smaller restrictor) for signs of cavitation when I tear down my 3.0.



Souk,

Sorry to be confusing.

I am not advocating relocating the pressure transmitter, I am only asking you to think through what happens vs what you see on the gauge.

As you note the oil pump is a Positive displacement (PD) style. This means that for each rotation of the shaft, approximately the same volume of oil is moved.

The discharge pressure from the pump (what we see in the oil pressure gauge) is created by the downstream line losses. In the case of a Porsche Engine, the oil goes through the engine internal passages to the lower crankshaft Galleys, the piston squirters and the heads before is goes to the sump to be cooled, filtered and returned to the oil tank for it's next lap.

The pressure transmitter is usually located near the passages supplying the piston squirters and upstream of the Cam tower oil lines.

The restrictor, which is downstream of the oil pressure transmitter, creates an additional restriction of oil flow to the heads. since the pump puts out the same amount of flow, more flow goes to the piston squirters/crankshaft galleys and less to the heads.

Since the restirctor is adding pressure drop to the entire oiling system, and the flow is constand, the oil pump output pressure increases to maintain the fixed flow rate. This is why you see the higher pressure at the gauge. I was only asking if you would feel the same way if the transmitter was on the other side of the restirctos so that when you installed themthe pressure will appear to go down.

I do not see this as a good thing (to my engineer mind). This means less oil to the heads in exchange for more oil tothe piston squirters and crankshaft galley. Normally I would say this is a good thing but since the hottest area in a Porsche engine is the heads and the flowing opil provides the cooling, I am thinking this is not a good thing.

One more factoid to consider is that when Porsche went to the restrictors, they also increased the totla flow fromthe oil pump. As a result, they kept the SAME flow to theheads and INCREASED the flow to the piston squirters and crankshft.

Also, there are many posts on this topic (as I am sure you already know). As I recollect, Grady Clay posted that how Porsche engineers choose to allocate the oil flow was a bit of a compromise and part of the addition of the restirctors was to get the piston squirters to operate at a lower rpm.

I hope this long winded explaination helps.

Some information from Grady:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grady Clay View Post
I added the piston squirters (red dots) and the internal
crankshaft drilling (green lines). The rod journals are
fed from the #1 and #8 main bearings.




Best,
Grady
And a great thread on the topic:

Cam oil restrictor fitting - why?
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Last edited by HarryD; 01-29-2009 at 06:35 PM..
Old 01-29-2009, 06:28 PM
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Kevin:

The rocker shafts that DTW and many others are using require little to no oil, maybe something you need to look into?
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Old 01-29-2009, 06:37 PM
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Harry,

I fully understand that by installing the restrictor, flow is increased (along with an increased pressure) at the crank and at the piston squirters, hence my earlier post about reduced crank wear and cooler pistons. The reduction in flow is only at the cam boxes (which lubes the cams, rocker, rocker shafts and valves) which we agree. My position is that the reduction in flow is not detrimental to cam, rockers, rocker shafts and valves....and cooling. This due to the theory that there was more than enough oil to begin with. This would be a compromise if there was "just the right" amount of oil to begin with. I'd love to know how the Porsche engineers decided on the spray bar outlet sizes. (What is the displacement of the 91 Turbo oil pump compared to say a 1989 964 pump?)

It could be argued that more oil in the cam boxes doesn't necessarily improve lubrication or cooling as there is only so much oil penetration and displacement into places that needs it. It can also be argued that too much oil in the cam boxes cause aeration of the oil which actually reduces the heat capacity of the oil resulting in reduced cooling at the heads. If that is the case with the stock restrictors, then the smaller restrictors would actually increase cooling. This is harder to test. Additionally, the aerated oil (foamy) oil reduces the pumping efficiency of the fluid/pump.

Edit after Harry's edit to add Grady's quote and link: Who the hell are those jokers posting on those threads? LOL!

Last edited by MotoSook; 01-29-2009 at 07:01 PM..
Old 01-29-2009, 06:43 PM
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Souk,

Yeah... those guys...

Always good to look back.

I do not think we are that far apart.

If you look at the picture of the two orifce sizes, there is a significant change in flow distribution (flow increase as the square of diameter i.e. 2x diameter = 4 x flow). I remain concerned for heat control in older cars that came with the smaller pumps.
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Old 01-29-2009, 07:37 PM
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You guys just complety blew my mind with your knowledge on this subject/debate. I had to read it several times. But know I am starting to understand and that I thank you for. I think makeing my own determination at this point has become somewhat easier.

Mike
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Old 01-30-2009, 05:46 AM
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Quoted from Crane Cams website

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=faq&id=2

Should I use "Oil Restrictors" in my engine?

No, Crane Cams does not recommend the use of oil restrictors. The oil is the life blood of the engine, not only lubricating but cooling the engine components as well. For example, a valve spring builds in temperature as it compresses and relaxes. This increase of temperature affects the characteristics of the spring material, and if excessive, will shorten the life of the spring. Oil is the only means the spring has for cooling.


I have removed mine based on this info and the thinking of HarryD and on the advise of many race shop owners from this board. Wayne sells parts and books. I have met and AXed with Steve Grosskemper. He advised me when I was building my engine in SD.

With the restrictors in place, I was running near 100psi when below 45degF. Cold start was 100psi at 2K rpm. Of course, I threw out my original adapters, so I had to drill out the restricted ones.

Need more pressure? Buy a bigger pump. Replace worn components and bearings.

And don't even get me started on putting a spherical bearing under an infinite axial load... Wow!! How did I ever buy into that one?...

Here's some good reading on that topic...
http://www.aurorabearing.com/technical-resources/faqs/default.html
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Old 01-30-2009, 07:10 AM
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Then should we be drilling out larger holes in the spray bar?
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Old 01-30-2009, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
"And don't even get me started on putting a spherical bearing under an infinite axial load... Wow!! How did I ever buy into that one?..."

Please, explain: What have spherical bearings to do with cams, valve train, springs etc........??

The only spherical bearings I can think of are the rear wheel bearings and they are lifetime-lubed.
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Old 01-30-2009, 07:31 AM
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The quote from Crane Cams needs to be qualified. Although it is true that the springs generate heat during operation....did Crane publish that statement after considering the case of an engine which might had an excess of oil going to the cams and valve springs?

We cannot generate any more heat in our engines simply by adding the restrictor. Any additional heat attributable to the restrictor is marginal. That is the restrictors do not add heat to the system. The heat generating capability of the engine should essentially be the same before and after the restrictor installation. Following that train of thought, a reduction in the piston temperature and a reduction in heat at the crank due to increased oil pressure and flow would result less heat transferred to the heads indirectly.

I don't believe anyone has recommended the installation of the restrictor on an engine that shows good oil pressure or an engine that has been rebuilt. The benefit of the restrictor is most recognized in engines that have high mileage and shows low idle pressure. Simply replacing the pump with a higher flow pump in such an engine isn't the solution (not without other costs), and rebuilding the engine isn't always an option. (As a side note, the oil pressure switch doesn't activate until something like 13 psig. So although the gauge may look ominously low, there is at least that much pressure in the system if the light isn't on)

I wouldn't want anyone to use the posts on this thread or any other interweb source to determine their decision. They have to think it through and with full understanding of the problem (or solution) they can decide. I stress "full understand" and urge scientific exporation (ask those nagging questions that no one else wants answers for! Be skeptical...even of the best of resources).
Old 01-30-2009, 07:39 AM
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What popular oils have ZDDP. I am running Castor Oil, any issues with that?

Did Porsche put restrictors on any of the 3.2's? If so, what year or models did it start with?

I have never givin any though to restrictors but here goes.

Are the restrictors thought to be mostly about crank oiling?

Oil on a 911 is as much about cooling as it is lubrication.

Not an expert but suspect crank oiling should not be much of an issue on most our motors unless we are running something well above 7000 for sustained amounts of time. I am thinking at high rpm, oil to the crank becomes more important and then there is a surplus at the valve train. Restrictors should fit this situation.

I defer to the experts.

Bottom ends on SC and 3.2's have a reputation for being bullet proof and going up to 300k w/o issue. Thinking increasing oil pressure at idle w the restrictors is not a big importance relative to most of our crank shaft needs.

Thinking restrictors are a better fit on a race motor where is spends a lot of time above 7000 rpm.

(I have lost two cross drilled 2.4S cranks, with C2 oil pump, to what ended up being faulty pressure relief valve springs. I had the restrictors with the second failure. )

Just my thinking out loud but I suspect restrictors are a better fit on a race motor than a under 7000 rpm motor where we need oil more for cooling than protection of the center bearings on the crank.
Old 01-30-2009, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Souk View Post
I don't believe anyone has recommended the installation of the restrictor on an engine that shows good oil pressure or an engine that has been rebuilt. The benefit of the restrictor is most recognized in engines that have high mileage and shows low idle pressure. Simply replacing the pump with a higher flow pump in such an engine isn't the solution (not without other costs), and rebuilding the engine isn't always an option. (As a side note, the oil pressure switch doesn't activate until something like 13 psig. So although the gauge may look ominously low, there is at least that much pressure in the system if the light isn't on)

I wouldn't want anyone to use the posts on this thread or any other interweb source to determine their decision. They have to think it through and with full understanding of the problem (or solution) they can decide. I stress "full understand" and urge scientific exporation (ask those nagging questions that no one else wants answers for! Be skeptical...even of the best of resources).
Wayne's rebuilding book recommends putting in the restrictors during rebuild assembly.

Many are using the restrictors as a bandaid for solving low oil pressure due to worn bearings.

The spherical bearing comment stems from sales hype and group think. Not applicable to an engine, but applicable to throwing parts at a problem they are not intended for... or at least not the "correct" solution.

The original restrictors were placed in the 930 along with a bigger oil pump, right? Many consumers are putting the restrictors in place due to low oil pressure caused by any number of factors, what they read in books, or what is posted on this board. Usually this low oil pressure is due to worn bearings, worn pumps, or clogged oil passageways.

I had no oil pressure issues, but since the group think here and Wayne's rebuilding book recommend them, I started using them.

Similarly, somewhere along the way, Elephant decided that there was too much radial play in the front upper strut mounts made from rubber. To solve the problem, they developed and implemented spherical bearing units. True, they do reduce all radial loading (just like the restrictors increase oil pressure), but radial loading is but a minute problem compared to the axial pounding that is transmitted through the strut. Especially when a consumer lowered car hits a bump or divit and the strut insert bottoms out, sending the axial load to infinity. The reaction of this load is for the upper bearing race to be pounded out, or away from the spherical bearing. This causes play between the race and the bearing, which results in excessive noise/rattling and wear.

Some have had no bad results with the restrictors in place. Perhaps on race engines or where owners defer valve adjustments to their mechanics, there is a loss of collectible data. I use the GM EOS with my oil changes. I experienced higher that previous backlash gaps when adjusting my rocker arms with the restrictors in place. Additionally, there has been no data collected on the longevity of valve springs with the restrictors in place compared to stock configurations.

It took less than a year on my car for each of these mods to be reversed: no restrictors, rubber front strut mounts.

Souk is right. Consumers should educate themselves. Unfortunately, marketing and opinions often cloud what is scientific, or at least fill in the void of missing information.
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Last edited by kucharskimb; 01-30-2009 at 08:42 AM..
Old 01-30-2009, 08:26 AM
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So Porsche designed the restrictors to work on a 930 motor in conjunction with a larger oil pump and to possibly support the larger pistons squirter's that flow more oil.

I heard the 930 heads are also built of better metal to handle more heat. It looks like they in effect may have transfered cooling from the valve train area to the pistons assuming the 930 runs the same oil pressure relief pressures.

Kind of looks like a package approach but I defer to the experts.
Old 01-30-2009, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgarr View Post
Kevin:

The rocker shafts that DTW and many others are using require little to no oil, maybe something you need to look into?
If you had your arse in gear a year earlier (when I did my top end) i'd be running the special treated bushings you found! Both you and Jay weren't able to track down these bushings when we did our rocker bushing replacement so shame on you guys!

But NO shame on you for doing the proper testing of them before installing in the engine. These bushings are the hot setup for avoiding rocker pivot wear, since the only way the rockers get lubed is via splash oiling that must work it's way into one small hole in the rocker body

G2 performance gruppe b rocker arm reconditioning with permaglide bushings
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Old 01-30-2009, 09:04 AM
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I have plenty of pressure at high RPM, stay under 7k rpm, and need all the cooling I can get. I think I will do without on my 3.2.

Thanks for the help.
Old 01-30-2009, 09:06 AM
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Very impressive!
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